Wayne Liquorman dialogue

Is Wayne the Martha Stuart of non-duality? Everything is supposed to come neatly together, and it ends up to be rather 'decorative' in nature.

I still think that non-duality is the most radical proposition of wisdom and understanding; if we are not up to it, it becomes a personal indulgence, meaning we consider it as our personal comfort zone and enrichment, worse, in the saint ego we use it as an absolute certainty of our personal indulgence.

Wayne does not do that, but he feeds it.

By asking deep questions Richard doesn‘t follow Wayne into dream-land!

Wayne makes statements like "look into yourself", for he dismisses the term "illusory" calling it a dichotomy which does not exist! Therefore all of his statements do not make things clear but are just vague and don't explain anything but just claim.

In the beginning of the interview the wave is said to have a beginning and an end. If this is so, the metaphor of ocean must have a beginning and an end too. Even though this is only a metaphor and, as Wayne says, truth could not be spoken about but only pointed to, he obviously has not understood what appearance means, which in this case is the ocean. The ocean is a label in the mind and not reality. The understanding which has happened to Wayne, so far, is superficial and would reveal wisdom if understood to be illusory. 

Wayne explains: "The waves are the ocean." But this is not true. In fact the ocean appears as the waves. The real reflects itself as the illusory. But, rightly understood, there is no dichotomy between real and illusory as Wayne explains. The ocean is itself illusory, the real is real and does not change, and yet there is no separation/dichotomy between the real and its illusory reflection. The ocean in the metaphor is consciousness and consciousness is not the real but the first illusion of the real!

The real as such could never be perceived or looked at, and the reflection of the real could only be understood as illusory if EVERY thought which is within the mind is understood with clarity to be illusory, if it ever happens and man cannot bring this understanding about. 

Therefore it has also to be understood that time as well as separate moments, i.e. beginnings and endings, are illusory and not real. To use the metaphor of ocean and wave without making this clear is misleading and indicates an incomplete understanding of the one to whom the metaphor happens, which remains as knowledge.

Wayne also says that speaking and doing happen in a moment. He says that “relative meaning“ is needed for man to function and only “absolute meaning“ troubles man. But does a relative meaning happen in a moment for man to function? Does man function based on meanings? In a moment all that happens is a movement of light and sound and not meaning, thought, action or word. Therefore functioning based on meanings is illusory!
 
Wayne's lack of clarity also gets expressed in the way he explains what "pointers" are valuable for: Wayne talks in the beginning of the interview about "looking deep into oneself to see the substance of every appearance". Only in the end - after a deep question of Richard - he makes clear that this substance, which he calls ocean, could only be seen as its appearances which he calls waves. But the ocean in this metaphor is an appearance too.

And most probably this is just knowledge to Wayne and not wisdom, because during the whole interview obviously has been no clarity at all that it is impossible for man to look into himself to find the real, even though Wayne has explained that the looking happens to man and he does not do it by himself: 

Wayne: "My teaching is pointing at looking and seeing directly that which is the source and the substance of everything." Man could not find the real within himself, because the real is real and could never be perceived. 

A man of clarity would never talk about "looking within to find the substance of appearances". A wise man would explain that by enquiring into the apparent "outside" - which is in fact man's own mind - an understanding may happen - if it happens - that the mind is the illusory reflection of the real which as such could never be perceived. 
 
Furthermore the distinction between doership and authorship which Wayne propagates is also an incomplete understanding: Wayne says that man is not the author of his deeds, but that deeds are indeed happening and that they lead to some kind of effects. He says so, as he explains in the interview, because he does not want man to be deceived to believe that he could refuse "doing". But this does not make things really clear. A clear understanding of life reveals that cause and effect are illusory, for actions are an optical and auditory illusion of light and sound and not an actuality in life.

So on behalf of humanity one should be happy that Richard, by asking deep questions, did not follow Wayne into the dream-land of spiritualism! However Richards questions did not succeed in making clear that it is a deception to take the world for a real “ocean of being“ whereas it is an illusory world of thoughts in the human mind.

The depth of understanding reflects the quality of speech of an apparent individual. The mind has to be understood with clarity as illusory, not only the illusion of doership/authorship. If man takes authorship for an illusion and the world, actions, time, cause and effect as real, man will further be confused instead of sophisticating into a wise man with clarity. 

If rightly understood, the distinction between “illusory“ and “real“ doesn‘t build up a dichotomy at all! It explains clearly why the world appears real to the mind as a multitude of individuals, actions, thoughts and meanings, whereas the mind is understood to be just sound, light at a lesser speed, by the witness which is a sophisticated ego.

Without a clear explanation of how the illusion of separateness gets reflected by life in the human mind, all statements about “oneness“, “ocean and waves“, “authorship and doership“, “relative meaning and absolute meaning“ and the “functioning of man“ are vague spiritual statements and this is how life makes the illusory appear as real.

*Understand mind as sound!
*Understand the illusory as a reflection of the real!
*Understand that the real could never be perceived and looked into.
*Understand the real reveals itself as its illusory reflection, if an understanding happens that ALL known is illusory and not real.

www.acadun.com
www.evolutionofmind.org

Hear, hear to Wayne's observation... 21.45 minutes into the chat... that "appearances have gotten a bad rap" in many spiritual circles.

They certainly have and continue to.

They (appearances) are simply differentiated aspects (or Wayne's "waves") of the undifferentiated or aspectless (or Wayne's "ocean").

Or to put it in its most simplest form... no thing appearing as some thing.

Yup. Indeed.

I was also glad to see both participants feeling comfortable in residing in the space between the thoughts (AKA silence to some) that were attended to.

Very refreshing and a stark contrast with some other interviews.