You are hereDr Shankar patiently helps unravel
Dr Shankar patiently helps unravel
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Dr Shankar patiently helps unravel
Beliefs seem to be cherished, beliefs seem like a complex web in the other, but truth is, most beliefs are invisible to the beholder. It is just my "knowing" of what is real, of how the world works. What beliefs? What are you talking about??
Today some very earnest people had the willingness to look again, and again, to go deep into the structures of illusion. Dr Shankar shows that it can be very simple. If you want to hang on to something and call it "real", then you are in for a ride. When you understand that all human perception is born of illusion, it becomes easy. Then mystery, unknowing, awe, take on new significance, and God is truly everywhere.
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Dr. Shankar is a rare occasion for absolute understanding. Even though I have an outlook of integration rather than non-duality, I embrace the sharing of Dr. Shankar. It is tremendous and essentially transformative unto LIGHT. Anyone who understands light and wisdom will agree. What he says is enzymatic for Enlightenment. His words make something happen that is inexplicable to knowledge or intellect.
www.moralempowerment.com
HERE IS THE LAST FEW POSTS, PLEASE PICK UP YOUR CONVERSATION JUST UNDER HERE.
Non-duality is always the
Submitted by wisdompoint on Sun, 04/18/2010 - 09:22.
Non-duality is always the point (bindu) in everything. The mind would not be able to function as a unity without non-duality. Non-duality and the illusion of the mind would not be possible without non-duality. Non-duality is the absolute distinction that we can make with the mind.
It is the distinction that frees us from our identification with all relative processes of existence. It is an adamant and exact distinction that cleaves asunder the real from the unreal as an unquestionable fact. Non-duality is not non-dualism. It is not words, thoughts, attachments to formulations or persons. If it is, it is duality. That is o.k.too as long as we remind ourselves of this absolute distinction.
There is a highest potential of hypocrisy that comes with claiming the absolute instead of realizing it. The intellect claims non-duality, like it claims everything else. Thinking does not claim. It creates. As soon as we claim the thinker we are not thinking anymore. When we claim thinking we are not a thinker. We are collectors of labels, names and knowledge. Thinking is not attached to labels or names. It is always fresh and unconditioned.
The absolute and the relative are integral to each other. The mind and non-duality are integral to each other. Otherwise there would be nothing. Non-duality is not nothing.
If there were a return then
Submitted by dizzedin on Fri, 04/16/2010 - 08:22.
If there were a return then it would still be IN a singular movement. If light works then the work would be illusory. The illusory work and the enlightened state are in the same moment and not separate from each other. An atom is a wave and a particle in the same moment. Enlightened state is a timeless and thoughless state which projects a human condition as an optical and auditory illusion. Humanity is enlightened in every moment for every moment is enlightened, if every moment were not enlightened humanity would not exist as such. Intelligence has no purpose for intelligence is light, intelligence reflects as intellect within the mind which has purpose that manifests and maintains the illusory world to appear real to an illusory individual the 'EGO'. Integration would require an integrater who could be no one else but the ego.
Of course the work of light
Submitted by wisdompoint on Fri, 04/16/2010 - 19:52.
Of course the work of light is illusory. That is the whole (wisdom)point. And what does "illusory" mean then?
There is no duality, and therefore no non-duality, just transcendent integration or transcendent manifestation. It works both ways, if we accept balance, harmony - cosmos, our account-ability. Integration.
Account-ability: "As a man thinketh in his heart so is he". If s/he thinks light, s/he is light. If not....
Light does no work, light
Submitted by dizzedin on Fri, 04/16/2010 - 20:43.
Light does no work, light merely reflects and that is its nature or potential. If work is involved then it is not wisdom. Illusory does not mean it DOES NOT exist, illusory means it exists but not in a manner the mind thinks it exists. Duality exists but not in the manner the mind thinks duality exists. Duality is there but opposites are not separate and therefore duality is non-dual. Transcendence is the midpoint of duality which is nonduality in the same moment. Thinking does not happen in the heart, for even the heart is a thought in the mind. If s/he thinketh that s/he is light, it is a dream no different from the waking state which is a dream too.
www.acadun.com
Thoughts are a product of
Submitted by wisdompoint on Fri, 04/16/2010 - 21:27.
Thoughts are a product of thinking. Thinking and I arise from the heart, The heart is the center. The center is the Bindu and the Bindu is an opening to Light and Life. On opening works both ways. The nexus.
Light's nature and potential is to be actualized = intelligence, purpose and work.
Thinking is a process in the
Submitted by dizzedin on Sat, 04/17/2010 - 06:33.
Thinking is a process in the mind and not in the heart for heart too is a thought in the mind and so is the body. Bindu means light. The word 'Both' indicates duality while Bindu i.e. light is non dual. Life's nature is light whose innate property is to reflect an illusory world, man and mind.
Who's right, who's
Submitted by marcus on Sat, 04/17/2010 - 08:22.
Who's right, who's wrong?
www.acadun.com or www.wisdom-point.com - a long discussion has happened here. who is right and who is wrong? The question doesn't seem to be easy to answer.
I personally could say that the contact with www.acadun.com made me free from having a list of "do"s and "don't"s. All the fear, the worries, sorrows, guilt, judgements and problems man has, come from the sense of being the doer. Dr Shankar helped me to see clealy why this is not needed for living in this illusory world, because everything is happening by itself and in thoughtform only. I'm grateful for that.
If life makes someone try the www.wisdom-point.com and if he get's offered a list - then this is fine, too. Life is intelligent enough to "teach" everyone in its own manner that lists of "do"s and "don't"s are illusory.
Nothing is "right or wrong". Good luck to everybody!
Marcus Stegmaier
I am very happy and excited
Submitted by wisdompoint on Sat, 04/17/2010 - 18:00.
I am very happy and excited to finally have found someone that I can speak to about non-duality without being attacked or doubted personally. That to me is a sign that this person truly understands non-duality. Not only that, in the course of the discussion much understanding and light has been conveyed and realized. That to me is a sign that this person has realized non-duality. That is priceless, and I appreciate it very much. I feel very fortunate.
www.wisdom-point.com
Man is not a thinker! As you
Submitted by marcus on Sat, 04/17/2010 - 18:44.
Man is not a thinker!
As you appreciate the effect of Dr Shankar's sharing on me, please allow me another response on your reply with the title "thinking is not a process...".
You write: "The reason why we are so troubled, is that we don't think yet! (...) An enlightened wo/man thinks with ease."
Response:
A man who claims to be the thinker is dreaming, he is not awake and alert to life but only to his mind.
Some of those dreamers are nevertheless labeled as "enlightened" - this is also an opportunity given by life to understand the illusion of "enlightenment". If man were the "thinker" then it were possible to learn "thinking" in the "right" manner - and under this condition almost everybody should have learned it until now, not only a few hundreds as you write.
An enlightened being is always at ease because s/he has understood with clarity and beyond doubt that thinking happens spontaneously without a thinker. Man is not a thinker, never was and never will be.
Marcus Stegmaier
Thinking is not a process. It
Submitted by wisdompoint on Sat, 04/17/2010 - 16:41.
Thinking is not a process. It is alive and creates. Reasoning is a process, logic is a process, Dialectics is a process, science is a process, being attached to ideas and thoughts is a painful process. All -isms are process and ideologies are dead.
Thinking is alive and so is the thinker. We have an account-ability. Everything comes together in a harmonious and beautiful way, because intelligence "wills" it so.
The human will of ego is just the seed of that. The seed has to die to bring forth the integral purpose, instead of ego-purposes. The integral purpose of the intelligence in a flower is to just become that flower and move on. So it is with all life organisms, a solar system, and the universe. They have an innate intelligence and purpose to become themselves completely. Man is not a flower s/he is a thinker. Let him become so completely and integrate with light.
The reason why we are so troubled, is that we don't think yet! There have been only a few hundred people in the known history of man that actually were thinking and some of them only partially. An enlightened wo/man thinks with ease. Thinking happens spontaneously with light. It creates out of light with sound, color and form.
We are creating our own lives, our own hell, our own situation and circumstances innately. But thinking can un-create, because it can create. A small child smears its mouth while it is eating. Humanity smears its mind while it is thinking. But we have no choice. We are thinkers in seed, the seed has to come to fruition.
www.wisdom-point.com
If reasoning, logic,
Submitted by dizzedin on Sun, 04/18/2010 - 22:14.
If reasoning, logic, dialectics, science, ideas,isms,ideologies, thinker are a process, so would be thinking. 'We' is the ego and no one else. Intelligence wills so that an understanding would happen to the illusory individual that thinking is a process and it will happen when it is meant to happen. Any purpose is a purpose whether integral or ego orientated and a purpose is illusory and not real. When understanding happens to man that he or she is not the thinker and thinking happens to him/her he will move on to realise that he is nature too and not separate from it. Man is an optical illusion of light and not of substance. Man cannot become anything other than what he or she is. The reason man is troubled is because he thinks that he is the thinker and has not understood that thinking too happens to him just as everything else happens whether he likes it or not. Nothing happens, let alone thinking, for life is a play of light and sound. Thinking is supermposed to sync with light that manifests the deception of man is the thinker. Sound color and form is illusory manifestation of light. We cannot create anything for the ego is false, the ego claims that it can create and this too happens to the ego. An enlightened he/she realises that thinking happens to him just as anything else in this illusory world. A single word if it appears real is hell. A small child smears its mouth to indicate that even primitive man was doing the same, a reminder that the past, present and the future is in the timeless and thoughtless 'now'. The ego's choice is illusory and not real. A seed fructifies when it needs to and thinking does not make it happen. If thinking could fructify were real, then thinking could make a seed to fructify and there would be no need for the seed to be planted in the ground.
www.acadun.com
Thinking is not a claim of
Submitted by wisdompoint on Mon, 04/19/2010 - 00:25.
Thinking is not a claim of ego, and happens before mind. When claimed it becomes subject to form, color, and sound as mind. When left alone it creates out of light with form, color and sound, and therefore it can un-create which is the re-cognition of non-duality. The thinker is account-able. The freedom of self determination...
Thank you.
www.wisdom-point.com
Ego is a claimer of
Submitted by dizzedin on Mon, 04/19/2010 - 08:35.
Ego is a claimer of everything whether man likes it or not including thinking. Man says 'I think'.
www.acadun.com
Man says many things: "I
Submitted by wisdompoint on Mon, 04/19/2010 - 21:49.
Man says many things: "I think". "I am". "I think, therefore I am", and "I am, therefore I think". Also, "I am that", and "I am that I am"... Ramana Maharshi said: "I-I". In the end, the 'I' is the nexus, whether it 'is' or it 'thinks'. Being and Thinking are integral to each other as 'I'. Claiming is not 'I', it is "ego". It is not 'ego-I', it is 'I-I'.
www.wisdom-point.com
'I-I' is the ego and it is
Submitted by dizzedin on Tue, 04/20/2010 - 08:57.
'I-I' is the ego and it is just sound which is a reflection of light and not real as such, for light is energy and not substance in time. Energy which is life, is timeless and thoughtless.
Message form Ramana Maharishi needs to be understood and not interpreted.
www.acadun.com
I-I is a statement without
Submitted by wisdompoint on Wed, 04/21/2010 - 14:30.
I-I is a statement without predicating objects! Interpretation is impossible. Understanding is there.
Words are form, sound and color. Thinking creates out of bindu and nada with form,color and sound. We are accountable. That is how the illusionary form of 'Ramana Maharshi' can be understood in the innate way, or be interpreted discursively.
However it happens, It involves saying, hearing, writing, printing, reading, and understanding across time and space. Non-duality needs duality in order to be non-dual. Non-duality is always at work being itself. That is development, purpose, and integrality.
www.wisdom-point.com
revision into non-duality.
Submitted by wisdompoint on Mon, 04/19/2010 - 21:59.
revision into non-duality.
www.wisdom-point.com
Non-duality is always the
Submitted by wisdompoint on Sun, 04/18/2010 - 09:22.
Non-duality is always the point (bindu) in everything. The mind would not be able to function as a unity without non-duality. Non-duality and the illusion of the mind would not be possible without non-duality. Non-duality is the absolute distinction that we can make with the mind.
It is the distinction that frees us from our identification with all relative processes of existence. It is an adamant and exact distinction that cleaves asunder the real from the unreal as an unquestionable fact. Non-duality is not non-dualism. It is not words, thoughts, attachments to formulations or persons. If it is, it is duality. That is o.k.too as long as we remind ourselves of this absolute distinction.
There is a highest potential of hypocrisy that comes with claiming the absolute instead of realizing it. The intellect claims non-duality, like it claims everything else. Thinking does not claim. It creates. As soon as we claim the thinker we are not thinking anymore. When we claim thinking we are not a thinker. We are collectors of labels, names and knowledge. Thinking is not attached to labels or names. It is always fresh and unconditioned.
The absolute and the relative are integral to each other. The mind and non-duality are integral to each other. Otherwise there would be nothing. Non-duality is not nothing.
www.wisdom-point.com
Willing to talk
Richard Miller
"Richard provided this space to pick up conversation......"
Wisdom-point writes:
There is no first man on earth, but a human prototype. Creating with thinking is its innate purpose. It does not come out of the past or the future, just like the map we use to travel does not come out of the starting point of our journey or the end. It covers the whole journey vertically without being involved in it and the time it takes. The map is present throughout.
Thinking does not create out of the journey. It creates out of the prototype. The seed innately is (no time) what it becomes(time). Intelligence is purposeful in taking time, whether it is an attosecond or a manvantara.
Response
Who created the first human prototype? Or how was the first human prototype created? What is the first human prototype? If thinking creates and if thinking were 'real', thinking has to cover the whole journey. Therefore the first human prototype or the seed needs to be created by thinking. We is the ego and no one lese and the ego is false. What is the 'it' that covers the whole journey if not light? What is the seed and form where does the seed come from if not as a reflection of light? Is the seed mad of substance? Yes all there is in life is the naless 'here' and the timeless 'now'. What is the seed and from where did the seed come from? What is the seed made up of? Can a genius give birth to a genius by thinking?
www.acadun.com
The "seed" is the understanding that nothing can BECOME (time) anything different than what it is already (no time) essentially. Everything can only bring forth itself. Humanity brings forth itself in time.
The difference is:
If a tree brings forth itself from the seed, it has no choice about that. Humanity does have a choice, that is part of the seed of humanity - self awareness and awareness of world, together - two sides of the same coin.
When humanity realizes choicelessness (non-duality), it is not the no-choice of a tree. It includes thinking as creating, with form, color and sound.
What role does sense perception play in terms of reflection of light, sound, color and form? How does a human being use its hands? What have we created so far? Science and Technology, Art, Poetry, Music, weapons of mass destruction, lobotomy, torture, genocide. Humanity is held account-able on account of thinking. There are no excuses.
Complete thinking creates causally out of light, (with form, color, sound and matter) Mastery over the elemenst plays a key role in that.
The one who created the universal prototype of the 5 element is the same that created the light, form, sound, color. Looking for a 'creator' on that level is theology and speculative. The fact is that wo/man creates for better or for worse, every day and every night. We have created our own minds with sound, form and color by thinking.
That is the only reason that we can transcend the mind. It would not be possible otherwise. No excuses. Only if we take full response-ability for thinking, can we encounter what is.
Whatever the ego claims is false, thinking becomes reasoning, reckoning, computation, anticipation, expectation, worries, the whole conglomerate of the concrete mind. When the ego claims non-duality it becomes non-dualism. Only thinking can think non-duality - the ego not. Thinking can un-create. The ego not.The ego can destroy. Thinking is therefore naturally aligned with contemplation concentration and meditation. The only difference is thinking creates. Working with illusion.
Why not just be enlightened instead? Just let everything happen? 'I' has no control anyway? Why create and un-create with thinking? It is already going on, just like enlightenment is already there. We don't stop breathing either when we are enlightened, but hopefully we breath better. We definitely think better, once enlightened, and we are free to create harmoniously.
www.moralempowerment.com
Form and color is a function of light due to reflection and refraction of light waves through the five elements and light appears as sound when the speed of light is lesser than the speed of reflected light that man can see. After sound was manifested it was heard by the mind as the mind was sophisticated to hear in evolutionary time. Thinking is in the form of thoughts and a thought is a sound and sound does not create. If thought creates, which thought could have created light? The book 'Evolution of mind' explains knowledge perception etc.
Who is the one who created the universal prototype of five elements? Theology and speculation is thinking and nothing else. If 'we' have created thinking can 'we' stop thinking? If 'we' have created thinking 'we' could have any thought which 'we' like and stop all thoughts which 'we' do not like. If 'we' can transcend mind what is stoping 'we' from transcending mind or who can stop anyone from transcending his or her mind? Who can stop 'we' from taking response-ability if 'we' are the thinkers and can think? If 'we' can think and thinking can create and uncreate why cannot 'we' uncreate the ego and non-duality?
Man has not created anything, everything and anything that is created is an optical and auditory illusion of light and sound including man. It is not up to man to be enlightened or not, he is enlightened whether he likes it or not, and the understanding that he is enlightened has happened to some which cannot be known by the mind, and is happening to everyone every moment slowly but yet surely. Everything happens whether man likes it or not and all that is happenning in life is nothing. That something is happening is in thought form in the mind, which is an auditory illusion of sound.
www.acadun.com
Thinking is not thought, because it is formless. Thought is form, color and sound. That is the point of creation.
Man has created a world unto himself and he is essentially account-able for it. He is able to account for it, because he created it. This is the essence of the law of Karma.
The nexus of this creation is 'I' or 'we'. What we have created in time so far is evident in form, color, and sound. Man has even reproduced light via electricity. Man creates - full stop. Once he realizes this, he can learn to un-create unto enlightenment. Once he realizes enlightenment he can consciously and harmoniously create out of light.
Non-duality is the absolute collateral for this level of sophistication in relativity. Integration. Nobody can think non-duality. Non-duality is un-thinking. Thinking returns into itself with non-duality. It merges in the light. No more creation. No more object orientation.
As long as man exists as a sophistication thinking creates out of light. The thinker is account-able for what s/he creates. S/he is creating a world of ideas, thoughts, sciences, technologies, politics, economies, ideologies, customs, values. S/he better face it and stand up for it. No excuses.
Non-duality is the absolute co-measurement for everything we create. We can not help ourselves, but to actualize the seed. Intelligence at work.
The human prototype:
Seeing happens before the eye. The eye is built in matter and time, with form, color and sound, according to the purpose of seeing. Seeing comes before the eye. The eye is just the material consequence of seeing. The present intention of all eyes across all life forms in time is seeing. Otherwise no eyes. Seeing is the intention to apprehend light as shape and color. Intelligence is purposeful.
www.moralempowerment.com
Staying "unenlightened" forever would be the best choice for man, if it were true what you write. The "enlightened man" being able to "consciously and harmoniously create out of light" would not be able to bear the burden of responsibility for his deeds. If man had the ability to choose, enlightenment would never be possible!
Why do you think the Enlightened Being is so relaxed in life? Because he can create? Not at all! Enlightenment is the spontaneous realization that the mind does not conduct life. Then the sense of doership gets lost and ONENESS reveals itself. The Enlightened Being is relaxed in life for life made him or her understand that there is no responsibility and guilt because life unfolds spontaneously without anybody doing it. Responsibility and guilt are the shadow of the illusory ego, nothing else! They are in the mind and not in LIFE.
You write: "Man has created a world unto himself and he is essentially account-able for it. He is able to account for it, because he created it. This is the essence of the law of Karma."
Man must be crazy if he were the creator of a world which needed amendments. If man were the creator he would create perfectly according to his beliefs always. Corrections would not be necessary.
And you write: "Man creates - full stop. Once he realizes this, he can learn to un-create unto enlightenment." Who makes man realize that man creates? As you write he is able to "learn" after this realization. How could he come to this realization then? How could a non-doer become a doer?
Marcus Stegmaier
I don't know whether relaxation should be a hallmark of enlightenment... It is certainly good for stress. Stress is not Creative Tension. Stress is of the ego. There is absolutely no contradiction between enlightenment and creative tension though. We tend to speak of enlightenment as if life is not going on any more. Life is going on. There is creative tension out of enlightenment of course. Enlightenment does not exclude illusion, just like light does not exclude sound. Integration.
www.moralempowerment.com
How strong the mind's believe is that life would stop without a doer!
Marcus Stegmaier
Thinking is thought, thought is subtle sound, speech is gross sound. Form and color is in the timeless and thoughtless 'now' and the nameless 'here' which is life. Form and colour is present in time as auditory illusion of sound which appear as words and meanings in the mind which evolved and sophisticated as thinking. Thinking happens only to man and not to vegetation or animals. Man has not created the world for in the world vegetation and animals also exist. They exist as optical illusions of light. The law of karma states that vegetation and animals were created before man. So who could have created vegetation and animals? Who was the first man or prototype who is accountable and how could he /she be accountable and for what? The law of karma is for an illusory man for the law or any law is illusory.
The human prototype: Sight, seeing and the seen are one and NOT separate from each other. Matter is energy which is light. Eye is therfore an optical illusion of light as is the body. Only the ego has a purpose and is manifested by THINKING, which is an auditory illusion of sound. Eyes do not see, light rays enter the eye ball and these light rays are transformed into sound which has evolved and sophisticated as the mind in which THINKING happens as a function of logic and reasoning. Seeing means absence of labels. When eyes open seeing stops and identification begins. The intelligence has no purpose, purpose is an illusory function of intellect which has evolved and sophisticted from intelligence or pure light.
www.acadun.com
Account-ability has nothing to do with guilt. Guilt is the inability to account for something.
Account-ability is understanding what we are in seed, i.e. in time and becoming. The entelechia of this is the completeness of what any life form is becoming in time, which it already is. Any life form follows this law of becoming in time. There is no spontaneity whatsoever - except to become what one already is, which is fulfillment.
For human beings this means creating with thinking. As I said before, not creating physical organic life forms, although that is an aspiration of the ego too, in genetic engineering. But the world that we humans surround ourselves with as a society, culturally, technologically, in the arts and sciences, in warfare, genocide, and all kinds of creations that have nothing to do with 'nature' as it has evolved up to the human sophistication of the mind.
We create in imperfection, because we have not realized our account-ability as thinkers. That is the point of wisdom. Just like we are in ignorance as long as we don't realize enlightenment. Ignorance is not an argument against enlightenment. Imperfect thinking and creation is not an argument against thinking out of light and harmonious creation. It is a matter of understanding in both cases - enlightenment and thinking.
Thinking creates thoughts out of light. It is not wise to stay "un-enlightened" then. Enlightenment takes precedence over thinking, because it guarantees authentic thinking. Once enlightened we have the freedom to think and un-think. That freedom includes the account-ability to work with illusion, recognize, and un-create the mess we have created in ignorance.
Whoever said that we are not free to create with illusion, color, form, sound, speech and words, once we are enlightened? As long as the nexus is there.
What is AAU doing with speech, pictures, sound, printing, thought forms, structure, reflection? It is un-creating illusion unto enlightenment. Otherwise. no need for all of this. This is based on thinking. Good luck trying this without thinking. Account-ability.
Again, the 'mind', as it is used in this context of non-duality, does not cover thinking, because it is about 'controlling' and the 'ego' in the end. Thinking is about creating something, not controlling something.
The whole notion that we can not control or create anything in nature as it surrounds us can not be extended to humanity as a part of nature, because humanity sports self-awareness. Nature is looking at itself in humanity, and therefore humanity does its level best to control and re-create nature in genetic engineering and nano technology, as well as in particle physics.
Wisdompoint says this is not necessary as long as we realize our level of sophistication as thinkers and create out of light. Once enlightened the individuation, or nexus of the thinker is a matter of instrument not a matter of ego.
There may have been enlightened people that have never spoken a word about it or revealed or shared it in illusion. The ones I have come to know personally, and have heard of, all have used illusion to assist others with this realization. And they very much were thinking and doing just that, in an expert way.
Non-accountability is never an option because of the innate purpose.
The eye does not just spontaneously convey light, color and shape to the seer. It has evolved over time through many organic forms for that purpose of seeing, what needs eyes otherwise but seeing? It is not serendipity that the eyes function the way they do. It is not serendipity or spontaneity that ears function the way they do. It is not spontaneous serendipity that the human being functions the way it does. It all serves a purpose, even the ego does.
These purposes are innate to intelligence, and they are beautifully integral to each other.
Even to think that things just happen spontaneously is still thinking. To say it is still saying. To experience it, is still experiencing. Who calls it "life"? Why? Because the one doing so thinks. Any self sufficient terminology that creates liberation or realization is un-thinking. There are no two ways about that.
That is why non-duality is the end of the mind and illusion and the beginning of thinking out of light. Then we can actually see with our eyes and the mind becomes the instrument of thinking. All the senses as well as the mind can be turned around. A path has always two directions. Light can manifest itself via the senses. That is what the senses are for in the end. Integration.
www.moralempowerment.com
Whatever your mind thinks about an Enlightened Being,
it is your mind's concept only. The Enlightened One perceives illusion as illusion. While the Enlightened speaks s/he is not a speaker but just a listener to the wisdom spoken by Life, all illusory though.
Marcus Stegmaier
Clarification to the previous post: Thinking is not a matter of "sophistication". It is a matter of subtlety. Thinking is not the effect of anything except intelligence. It is not conditioned by sound, color or form, and especially not by any of the security/control seeking activities of the mind like computation, formal logic, reasoning, dialectics, etc.
www.moralempowerment.com
Thinking cannot be the effect of intelligence, as life is causeless and effectless. Thinking is a process in evolution and sophistication, as an auditory illusion of sound. Thinking as an adjective means thought or rational judgement as a function of INTELLECT. Thinking as a noun means a person's ideas or opinions.
www.acadun.com
The reification of thinking as an adjective or noun is not thinking, it is intellect. Thinking as an action (verb)is before intellect. The mind grasping 'things'(noun) and 'attributes' (adjectives) is not thinking.
Thinking is an action, and an action is not a thing or attribute. Thinking works both ways, as absolute understanding of light and life, and as creation of illusion. Every moment, every day. The 'path' goes in both directions, from illusion to enlightenment, and from enlightenment to illusion.
Thinking does not lead into bondage, it creates.
Intelligence is only causeless and effectless within itself, but it is the ultimate causation of illusion at the same time. It can not be separated. Purpose is everywhere, in all evolution, in reflection of light, in the five elements, in form, color, and sound; otherwise cohesiveness, cosmos, or harmony/order would not be possible.
www.moralempowerment.com
Intelligence is light, intellect is mind, thinking leads to bondage.
www.acadun.com
The word 'thinking' seems to be meaningful to you. Have you wondered how valid meaning as such could be? Words appear to have meaning but meaning is not innate to words. Meaning is due to duality (explained in Evolution of Mind). Duality is illusory. If so, could any meaning be real?
You said "Thinking as an action (verb)is before intellect." If it is thinking that creates then why do we come to know something only after it has happened? Does observation not reveal that life, including man, happens even before thinking happens to him?
Something or somebody is perceived only when the thought of it or him/her happens in the mind of the observer. The perceived cannot perceive. If man is the perceived and therefore cannot perceive, could s/he create anything? Man does not create, though he claims it through the cognitive process as thoughts and their illusory meaning.
Randy Breuer
Thinking is not thought. Thought is created by thinking. The thinker is account-able for that (s/he is able to account for that).
The physical/biological man is not a principle (arche/beginning). It is instrumental. The thinker controls it as an instrument, just like any master controls the instrument s/he works with or creates with.
The piano player does not need to be conscious of all the intricate processes that go into producing the sounds that he plays. He wants to PLAY the Sonata. S/he is not even involved with the intricacies of his finger movements, because s/he made a long effort to practice them.
We don't need to be involved with all the biological intricacies that go into each breath - as long as we understand how to breathe the right way, and how we can use our breathing.
With whatever excellence and best way of doing something or creating something, the mind and ego can get in the way, especially with enlightenment.
Nothing just happens. Everything has an innate purpose, even though we experience it as spontaneous. There is no contradiction in this to non-duality or life, the contradiction only arises with the limitations of the CONCEPTION of non-duality. These limitations are historical, cultural, personal, by terminology, and they are obvious. They are not part of non-duality. Non-duality is oneness as unity in diversity - cosmos, harmony/order.
www.moralempowerment.com
You never met an Enlightened One!
Wisdompoint: "There may have been enlightened people that have never spoken a word about it or revealed or shared it in illusion. The ones I have come to know personally, and have heard of, all have used illusion to assist others with this realization. And they very much were thinking and doing just that, in an expert way."
Response: You have never met an enlightened one, you have just met your own mind again and again. You "know" them "personally" or have "heard of" them as thoughts in your mind only.
Marcus Stegmaier
I don't answer to personal attacks or judgments directed ad hominem...It certainly reveals the tremendous and dogmatic arrogance of non-dualism that rears its ugly head again and again as the ultimate ego: The ego claiming non-duality.
www.moralempowerment.com
Ego lives in a world of "personal attacks and judgements directed ad hominem". Life is just light and sound. This is where the witness is simply alive.
Marcus Stegmaier
Yep.
And if one beliefs in the only begotten son of Jesus Christ, one will be saved into eternal life. The witness is sitting on the throne, and everything around him is light and sound.
I repent! I cast my ego and mind down into the fire of eternal damnation - and than, only than will I be saved by the grace of life.
Welcome to the church of non-dualism, please check critical discrimination and thinking at the door together with your ego and mind.
You will feel very good, we promise. So relaxed and peaceful. What more could anybody desire? ;)
www.moralempowerment.com
Yep indeed.
While reading this interesting discussion I was actually associating it myself with the old diatribes in the realm of religions and other ideologies.
Think only of Ortodox and Catholics about the Holy Trinity.
They just don`t give up an inch of their believes. And it is just about the small word "filioque" i.e if the Son was emanated from the Holy Spirit or directly from God. In a way also a non-duality conflict, still going on in our time.
Maybe it should be easier to understand each other if we had clear definitions of what is meant by different words e.g. "create", "thinking" vs "thought", "integration" etc.
And besides, it is of little use to repeate the same comments all the time.
Anyhow, I enjoy discussions so - thank you!
Anna
Let say we are politicians and we want to establish, maintain or develop democracy. The usual and logical way to tackle this challenge would be to agree on a definition of democracy first. But what will happen after we have put our signature under a shared view on democracy? We will discover sooner or later that our consensus and mutuality of our views is a deception. Look around you, see what happens to those who declare that they act out of mutual ‘definitions’: they just battle, albeit illusory.
Disagreements leave man uncertain. So, he aims to reach consensuses to decrease his sense of uncertainty, hoping to become steadier. The mind, however, is already filled to the hilt with mutual meanings and consensuses but has it brought man steadiness out of understanding or just more knowledge? It has only increased man’s knowledge, which explains why he is still uncertain and unsteady, though he should feel very certain and steady by now because of all the consensuses he has gathered! But does he? No!
So, it is not consensuses that man needs to become steady, though it sounds logical. But life is not logical. Man needs to understand his mind, which is not conditioned to understand how illusory words and their meaning and language and, therefore, consensuses are. Knowledge is an invitation to distrust, accompanied by unsteadiness. Understanding dispenses knowledge and leaves man increasingly steady, accompanied by trust.
Randy Breuer
I could not agree more, Anna, especially with the point of mutual definitions of words, and beyond that of structures and cultural assumptions.
www.moralempowerment.com
No comment
is necessary,
for thoughts
are an auditary illusion of sound
only. You're welcome.
Marcus Stegmaier
Comment happens even if you think it is not necessary!
Here it is: The mystic happened to realise that "God is all there is". Religion happens when the mystic's words are interpreted by the ego with the concept of "man is the doer". Then guilt, damnation, do's and don'ts arise.
Marcus Stegmaier
Yes. We also are used to say - slightly more ruthlessly - that God gave man spirituality and the Devil then eventually organized it in different religions.
I think this is how it works in this illusionary existence.
I hope that non-duality teaching teachers and their followers do not become blindly dogmatic in their beliefs but see more what one has in common with an other rather than fighting with "bible-quotes".
Peace
Anna
What "we are used to say" is not what was meant by Marcus, it is what has been understood by Anna:
"Yes. We also are used to say - slightly more ruthlessly - that God gave man spirituality and the Devil then eventually organized it in different religions."
There is no devil in this world - it was meant that "God is all there is". And as LIFE makes the mind happen, there has never been a real fight - "fighting" is just your mind's imagination.
Mind is conditioned with believes - Understanding is not a believe even if it may appear as such to the conditioned mind.
Quote Dr. Shankar: "Teaching conditions the mind to believe that life is real, and also that something can be done either to correct it, shape it or control it. Understanding de-conditions the mind to reveal life that is an illusion and that nothing can be done either to correct, shape or control it."
www.nevernothere.com/blog/perception-and-experience
This is not dogmatic, for nobody is forced to believe anything but invited to understand that all believes are illusory. "Man is not the doer" is not another believe, it is just a relative way to express that individuals are illusory. Once this is understood deeply, there is not even the sense of being a non-doer. The non-doer is also illusory, for LIFE is thoughtless and timeless.
Marcus Stegmaier
Beliefs and values are energy not illusion. "illusion" is just a cop-out. We are account-able for our beliefs and values, because we are able to think out of light and create believes, values, and meaning. The worst belief is the belief in non-duality. It is called non-dualism.
www.moralempowerment.com
There is a lot of 'happening' going on here. "Comments happen", "the mystic happened to realize", "Religion happens"...
Holocaust happened, oil spill happens, terrorist attacks are happening,...
Hey, it is just happening...Don't worry, it is just a reflection, an auditory illusion, if you hear the woman next door yelling for help at the top of her lungs, because her boy friend is banging her head into the wall again and again, it is just an auditory illusion. You have no control over the millions of muscle movements involved. Just happen into bed. Everything is changing all the time anyway...You happen to have some ear plugs? Happen them in your ears, and then the auditory illusion of sound won't bother your illusionary conscience any more.
www.moralempowerment.com
Comment on new forum topic: "responsibility and guilt - the shadow of the ego."
Marcus Stegmaier
Your usage of the word ‘happen’ did make me laugh, and not in a patronizing manner!!
Am I right in saying that you mentioned a few undesirable happenings in the world while suggesting that those who use the word ‘happen’ as demonstrated by you may exhibit a lack of accountability towards others and nature and therefore may not be able to respond adequately to what is happing around them?
If so, what is your point if these happenings occur despite of a widespread and common belief that man is accountable? I mean, man’s belief that he is accountable does not seem to help him a lot to ‘demonstrate’ genuine care, concern and compassion towards others and nature.
Events and actions need time to exist, which does not exist in life. They occur in illusory time as knowledge of events and actions in the mind with no relevance to life whatsoever.
Randy Breuer
Now "happenings" even "occurs". How about "occurrences" "happen"? All of this vernacular of non-dualism indicates only one thing: detachment. And detachment counteracts identification. The one who takes care to witness things happening and occurring is the thinker and doer, and is account-able. Non-duality is a two way street. Integration.
The witness can think and act. Thinking and doing brings us to witnessing, even if we coach it in terms of non-doing, like "happening" and "occurring". Account-ability.
Non one here bothers to discriminate between the ability to account (account-ability) and 'accountability' as a vernacular of non-dualism, which of course is associated with the ego and guilt.
People bend over backwards to give up on their ability to account and establish that everything is just happening.
The dogmatism of non-dualism is the worst the world has ever seen. The biggest failure of non-dualism is the inability to be critical against itself. This is the worst form of ignorance there is: Claiming the absolute in an ignorant dogmatic way.
www.moralempowerment.com
I am finding myself questioning the most valuable and precious understanding of humanity in this video.
Why are we dualistically posing "life" and the "speed of light" against "mind" and the "speed of sound"?
Thought has more speed than light at any time. That is the integration between East and West.
Non-duality seems to be VERY dualistic. Let us consider integration as the transcendent purpose.
www.moralempowerment.com
Hello Andreas,
“Coaching“ and “spiritual development“ which life makes you offer on your website are there to be enjoyed as illusory, too. If they are taken to be real - this is dualistic. If they are understood to be illusory - this is non-dualistic. For me, Dr. Shankar is very clear about that.
Non-duality doesn't mean that duality disappears. The understanding that duality is only in the mind and not in life makes you live life while simply enjoying the duality which appears in the mind as an auditary illusion and not as a reality. “Dualistic“ means that the duality in the mind is taken to be real. Dr Shankar points out that the duality in the mind is not real but illusory. This is “non-duality“.
If once understood, there are no real problems in life any longer but only in the mind as an illusion of sound. Then it is understood that man is not the doer, the speaker and the thinker and you will never give anybody any advice for you have realized that problems and advices are illusory.
Marcus Stegmaier
I always love it when someone tries to jump down my throat with the assumption of absolute knowledge. Putting it in another way. It is like someone pours a pot of honey on my crown chakra. Very sweet and kind, but very sticky in its assumed arrogance....
Non-Duality tries to resolve Duality by assigning 'illusion' to everything else. This is denial, and we are stuck with what we define dualistically as illlusion. The only way of non-duality is integration - no illusion, just discernment of integration.
A little reading of the classics (Ramana Maharshi, Sri Ramakrishna) makes that very clear.
Having said that. - The duality between mind and life is of course complete nonsense. The mind covers life essentially and it can be faster than the speed of light. If we position mind against life, we are speaking of 'manas', or the outer mind, that is subject to the senses and how they process light which is the past. Light is always the past on that path. But it is present in 'buddhi', or the inner mind, that is independent of the senses and experience.
That is how the West will meet the East, not by throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
It is an unfortunate development to see this misunderstanding about the mind and life in this age and time.
Love, Light and the beauty of SOUND to everyone
www.moralempowerment.com
Celebration of TRUST! Dr. Shankar in Houston on NNH.
Sometimes the questions people ask about Advaita seem to be mostly philosophical to me. That was never "my approach" to Advaita. My ego had been in despair in all the realms of life: relationships, love, children, parents, work, money, "meaning of life", anger, sadness, confusion, death...
TRUST for me is the shadow of UNDERSTANDING and yet not separable from UNDERSTANDING. In a way TRUST and UNDERSTANDING are one and the same. An understanding which doesn't lead to TRUST is knowledge.
The questions and responses in the webcast with Dr. Vijai Shankar have the potential to let TRUST happen in our illusory lifes!
Marcus Stegmaier
Great observation. Trust and understanding are the enzymes of non-duality. It won't work otherwise.
www.moralempowerment.com
"TRUST isn't expectations!"
Dear Andreas,
Here is an excerpt of Dr Shankar Dialogues (the one on the left) on NNH:
"Love also, man mistakes it to be love - it‘s only expectations, as is trust. Trust and love man takes it to be trust and love but they are just expectations of the human mind. Love is unconditional and trust too is unconditional, because trust and love is life. You follow? Fear therefore, my friend, is never in life! Please, spread this message, that fear is never in life. It‘s always in the past which is not here, it‘s always in the future which is not yet here. What‘s the point in you being frightened? Man is frightened and it exposes the distrust he has in life. Man will be fearless the moment he trusts life. “You have to go now? I‘m ready to go.“; “You will be dying now? So be it.“; “You don‘t have food now? So be it.“; “You don‘t have a job now? So be it."
Dr. Shankar on NNH.
I had a click on your website. Life makes you offer “coaching“ and “spiritual development“. So you offer “help“ for others in seemingly important questions of life. A very important question comes up: Are you yourself always free from the need of help all the time? Has complete trust happened in life for Andreas? Did you notice already that in life there are no real problems, because development is just illusory?
Marcus Stegmaier
I always love it when someone tries to jump down my throat with the assumption of absolute knowledge. Putting it in another way. It is like someone pours a pot of honey on my crown chakra. Very sweet and kind, but very sticky in its assumed arrogance....
Non-Duality tries to resolve Duality by assigning 'illusion' to everything else. This is denial, and we are stuck with what we define dualistically as illlusion. The only way of non-duality is integration - no illusion, just discernment of integration.
A little reading of the classics (Ramana Maharshi, Sri Ramakrishna) makes that very clear.
Having said that. - The duality between mind and life is of course complete nonsense. The mind covers life essentially and it can be faster than the speed of light. If we position mind against life, we are speaking of 'manas', or the outer mind, that is subject to the senses and how they process light which is the past. Light is always the past on that path. But it is present in 'buddhi', or the inner mind, that is independent of the senses and experience.
That is how the West will meet the East, not by throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
It is an unfortunate development to see this misunderstanding about the mind and life in this age and time.
Love, Light and the beauty of SOUND to everyone
www.moralempowerment.com
Response: Knowledge of any kind is relative and never absolute,neti-neti. Crown chakra too is knowledge arrogance too is knowledge. Everything needs to be illusory including knowledge if the world is illusory as proclaimed by enlightened beings like Ramana Maharishi. Mind and what it takes life to be is duality though non-dual seeing life as it is too appears dual visually but yet remains non-dual. Light and sound appears dual but yet remain non-dual for sound is light at a lesser speed, which science does not know as yet. Outer and inner mind are one and the same. Senses too is thought and therefore sound. A thought is in the past as are all thoughts even the thought of the present. There is no word in the present. The west has already met the east in the now. It is really unfortunate too see the misunderstanding that west is separate from the east.
Indeed, "sound is light at a lesser speed", and knowledge is thinking at a lesser speed. Indeed, "non-dual seeing life as it is too appears dual visually but yet remains non-dual". Everything is indeed one and provides the integral possibility of two. The thinker and life are one, because life thinks to begin with. Knowledge is past. Thinking is now. Life "does not come at me". IT thinks "me", and it thinks this whole universe. There is no difference between mind and life.
The West has been going the path of 'cosmos' or 'order' in this with Pythagoras, Plato and Aristotle. India has been going the path of 'Maya' or 'Illusion' with Buddha and Shankaracharya. China has been going the path of 'Harmony' with Confucius. This is the tremendous Mystery of 'Mind' and 'Life'. The question of being, the question of conduct and the question of knowledge. These three question are always at work in everything we do or don't do. Even in what we 'let happen'.
The more we slow the mind down in knowledge the more it becomes separate. The more we slow life down in knowledge the more it becomes fragmented and past-tense.
Life is only alive as ultimate intelligence and being, otherwise it becomes 'biology' or "something that comes at me" This intelligence is integral in nature and has a complete purpose, a telos in all its works. It is at work being itself.
As humans we are asked to chose, we are asked to have intentions, we are asked to understand, we are asked to act, we are asked to know, we are asked to love. There is an integral purpose to humanity in the face of life. It is not just illusion, and then some...
The integral mind mirrors life, and probably the ultimate sees itself in this mirror and says "well done". There is a lot of work left to do in the past...Liberation from it is always at hand, in each breath we take.
www.moralempowerment.com
Knowledge appears to happen in the now, which actually is the past. Thinking appears to happen in the now, which actually is the past. The past present and future is in the now and not separate from it. The now is timeless and thoughtless. The conviction that man is the doer speaker or thinker escapes no man except the enlightened who realize that doing speaking and thinking happens to them as thoughts in their mind. Purpose is only in the mind and not in life for cause and effect is in the mind. Life is causeless and effectless beginless and endless. The mind integral or not projects and optical illusion of light and an auditory illusion of sound. The ultimate does not see for their is no need for the ultimate to see. The ultimate is the seer the seeing and the seen. There is no work to be done in the past for their is no work even in the present.
www.acadun.com
Knowledge and Thinking are ultimately very different. Thinking manifests intelligence and light, knowledge conserves it in the deep freezer of books and libraries. It is by way of manifesting light via ACTUALLY thinking that we ARE "Ramana Maharshi" and understand beyond this form...
www.moralempowerment.com
Knowledge is thinking and thinking is knowledge, both are one and the same and not different, for both are illusory manifestation of sound. Intellect manifests thinking and not the other way around. Mother gives birth to the child and not the other way around. Thinking cannot manifest light for sound cannot manifest light.
www.acadun.com
Thinking is principally different from knowledge. We should know that. Knowledge is form (sound). Thinking is not. Thinking directs form and sound. Thinking even directs light (in a different sense than sound). Integration is the key. Knowledge is reflection and conservation as "development" and history, which is the narrative of identity and continuity. Record keeping, and in the end - spiritual bureaucracy,
www.moralempowerment.com
Thinking is subtle sound and so is knowledge. Speaking is gross sound. Sound cannot direct form, light or itself, sound appears as thinking.
www.acadun.com
What you call “thinking“ is - in my understanding - not real but the illusory sense of being the doer, speaker and thinker. (You wrote: “Thinking directs form and sound. Thinking even directs light...“)
When the mind has been understood with clarity, “your own“ body and mind get perceived as if you were watching not yourself but somebody else or an animal or a tree. From beyond the witness watches “you“, the apparent individual, as an illusory part of the spontaneous (!) flow of nature.
Then the ego - wich is nothing but the sense of doership - disappears and the witness is aware that there are thoughts without a thinker, words without a speaker and deeds without a doer, all illusory though in the form of light and sound.
Marcus Stegmaier
"When the mind has been understood with clarity".
Who is doing the understanding, relative understanding and absolute understanding? It is the same that does the thinking. Understanding happens upstream from knowledge; it is more difficult to claim understanding; thinking creates with light and sound, always, even if we are not aware of it; such is the nature of wo/man.
The ego or sense and claim of 'I do' can get involved with thinking and claim it, but that is not the reality, it can be a "disaster" though. How?
Intelligence and light have been 'understood' with clarity, 'thinking' creates and directs - now we need stewardship and even mastery and not the claim of doing it.
As thinking can create with light, it can also un-create or re-create unto light. Enlightenment has two directions, out of form and identification as a doer and into form and identification as a steward or player in the theater of reflected light and sound. It works both ways, always. Integration.
www.moralempowerment.com