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Who am I to you, and who are you to me?


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RichardMiller's picture
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True character is evidenced through your choices in a dilemma. Choice without a dilemma is a game that is not very revealing. How a person chooses to act under pressure is who he is, for all those in contact with him. Those same actions are what most often inform us about ourselves. We also might have some other imaginings about it, or reasoning as to why we do what we do. But how relevant are they if they never show up?

The greater the pressure, the truer and deeper revelation that choice gives. What I think that I really want is probably behind it all? And that desire may be orchestrated by many motivations. But after the choice has been made and the action is taken, even those motivations become irrelevant.

✓First of all, how many of us ever experience this kind of pressure? Timid steps (not) engaging with life keep that possibility very remote. Don’t get out of your safety zone.

✓Mostly we choose the same actions that the other guy chooses. For instance most companies don’t cut back on pollution until there is a law. “Everyone is doing it that way”. I’ll be the only one not looking out for myself.

✓A true choice freshly considers all the options, and/or discovers new options. Not many people are comfortable with making that level of choice. We are much better at simply doing what we did yesterday.

✓Is that a choice? Or is that just the choice to not make a choice?

How can we expand our life beyond that old paradigm? Don’t we have to try new stuff? We have to take a chance and measure the results. We have to trust ourselves to meet an unknown situation, and decide what to do about it right now, on the fly. To accomplish that we cannot be judging that only one choice is right and all the others are wrong. That immobilizes us. All the choices are experienced through this life. So if we are not in the habit of condemning ourselves, what’s there to loose? I went to the grocery store on the freeway, or I chose to go by the back roads. I am still at the grocery store.

Trying and measuring could be called an experiment. Doing that in the spirit of fun and playfulness could be a most effective way to expand life.

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marcus's picture
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Hi Richard, a situation is

Hi Richard, a situation is not a grocery store. A situation is not physically present as is a grocery store, albeit illusory. Any way that leads to a grocery store will lead anyone who takes that way. A situation that has worked for some does not work for others. Sometimes one cannot know the person to whom the situation has worked. He has to search for that person, meanwhile his situations keep mounting. If the person to whom the situation has worked is found and is asked how it did work out, an honest reply would be ‘it happened’, but, not exactly how it was told it would work out. So how does one find out, how a situation would really work out exactly? This can never be found out. So the question remains, how does a situation really work out?

Marcus Stegmaier

RichardMiller's picture
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A Place is not a Situation

My faulty metaphor meant to say that with every path through any situation there is always aliveness. Celebrating aliveness is really all that we have to enjoy. So then is there really any significant difference along these many ways?

The difference is significant only if you define it that way (with or without a lot of societal agreement).

So then the tone of situations, and that tone as resinated through different individuals has a lot to do with refusing to alter a definition.  ("But this definition is the truth.") That is another definition that makes it impossible to change a definition.

A situation works out through open heartedness.  That is known, and that can be chosen and moved toward.  When that situation is no longer of interest to anyone (it's resolved) then there will be details of the outcome that cannot be precisely predicted.  That unknown factor is probably the fun of it.

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marcus's picture
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What do you mean by

What do you mean by aliveness? Is that aliveness present in the beginning of the path taken, in the middle of the path, at the end or at every step of the path? Also, what do you mean by open heartedness? When the situation is no longer of interest to anyone, obviously it is resolved to them. But, what about the person to whom the situation is tied to and is still present?

Marcus Stegmaier

RichardMiller's picture
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Hi Marcus, Three good questions

1. Aliveness might be construed as simply being alive, which is of course the basis of it. So it is always available. It can also pay to talk about the felt sense of aliveness.  Honoring every moment of living  (not as a directive)  has to be instrumental in the awareness of that felt sense.

Not as a directive means that we don’t just decide to honor every moment, and then it happens.  Honoring every moment has some prerequisites.

  • First your attention has to be focused here to see what to honor in every moment.
  • Your not to be honoring just the idea about every moment.
  • Honoring works best if we don’t have tons of explanations that claim what we already know.
  • The depth of life is always on the boundary of the unknown, so coming from the mystery helps.

Standing in the unknowing may be like some of your posts, that we can’t really know the details of anything, including how things really happen.  We just have a cursory explanation that is enough for us to move on to the next encounter. I have never had any objection to that kind of ultimate statement. Although I hate to make another “explanation” out of it.  And I hate to close off the world of the relative by presupposing too much about the ultimate.  I live in both the ultimate and the relative, so I also want to participate fully in the relative.

Aliveness is present in every step of the path.  The focus on aliveness may be present just in the last step.

2. Open heartedness might be understood by many but seem elusive.  To be tolerant, honoring, accepting, respectful, compassionate about another human being, (and of other living things and the environment). 

So then how do I get to experience this felt sense about another? The easiest way we found is to relate this open heart to an open body.  That means living with less contraction.  Contraction is so often the result of a self limiting story.  An interpretation that leaves no room for me to maneuver with resolving actions, makes me into a victim.  That is accompanied by anxiety, reactions, emotions and moods.  My energy level might sink if it seems to be a continual dead end.  It becomes a fear and that fear is a guardedness about the other.  The guard is most often called a closed heart.  Open heart, closed heart are metaphors.  Just construct a more open interpretation if you notice a closing.  Above we called it (if you notice) a “situation”.

3.  Two or more people have competing aims and they call it a situation.  They discuss it and work it out to a point where each desires to move on. It may not be totally fair on both sides, but they both see that they can build what they want from that point on.

Or, one of those persons is “tied to the situation”, which means they don’t agree that they can move forward from where the first wants to leave it.  Often that person objects, reacts, dramatizes and causes trouble until the first person thinks that your trouble is worse than the original difference of opinion.  So the second attempts to re-tie the first back into the situation. So then it isn’t yet resolved. 

If the second is unsuccessful at calling the first back, then the second has to somehow digest it, in order to move on themselves.  Again, telling a broader story is the way to digest it.  It can work with great success if it is indeed a plausible story.

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marcus's picture
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Hi Richard 1.You have

Hi Richard
1.You have mentioned that aliveness is that which is alive and always available. To honor every moment present (not as a directive) to feel the awareness of aliveness. You have also mentioned that aliveness is in every step of the path. Is premeditation of aliveness as a certainty for any moment possible? Certainly aliveness cannot be premeditated as a certainty or chosen any moment. Aliveness cannot be premeditated as a certainty or chosen, as man has not made aliveness to be in it. Aliveness was present before man was, to include man within it. Anyone who claims to live in the absolute and the relative should be aware that aliveness can neither be premeditated as a certainty nor chosen. Anything could happen in every moment of aliveness. After the situation has happened man cannot change it. He could if has made aliveness. But he hasn’t made aliveness, so he just cannot. So according to you man needs to honor if a situation is difficult, catastrophic, loss, tragic etc. Your societal definition of open heartedness would also require man, to be tolerant, honoring, accepting, respectful, and compassionate to the situation, even if it is difficult, catastrophic, loss, tragic too? Honestly would you be able to?
2. You have mentioned open hearted with relation to the other. You have included ‘situation’ as the other too, meaning situation involving the other. You have not mentioned what open heartedness means to a personal situation, meaning not involving the other. It just cannot be another set of societal definition of open heartedness, already defined involving the other or the other as a ‘situation’ surely.

Marcus Stegmaier

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Aliveness is a definition here

1. Aliveness as a certainty is not a premeditation, it is a definition.  If you are alive, there is aliveness.  If you are not comfortable with that, let’s call it a working definition.  As we move forward with checking out our lives, we’ll see if this proves to be true more often than it proves to be false.

(I think that also handles the question that man didn’t make aliveness, so he can’t premeditate upon it as a certainty.)

2. So, can aliveness be chosen?  Concepts can be chosen, which are numbness or deadness.  Could concepts not be chosen?  (choose to not choose.) Would that settle you into aliveness?  Let’s see by practical investigations, not just thought experiments.

3. After a situation man cannot change it.  But a situation is made of two components. Something happened, and I interpreted that.  The something that happened is water under the bridge, gone.  The interpretation is what I hold in memory, and that I surely can change.  Nobody can know what percentage of those two components each situation is made of.

4. If a situation is difficult, catastrophic, loss or tragic, part of those definitions are interpretation.  (Maybe all of them are based on my needs.)

Yes I would be able to settle on open heartedness.  “Settle on” means that I might very well experience all sorts of feelings, but I would choose openness in the end.  Any other strategy would just be punishing myself.

5. What are personal “situations” not involving another.  So often they are fantasy, because there is no other to be your verifier. 

If I have a terminal illness, I’m going to die.  That might not involve the other and my death is not fantasy.  How do you want to die, with a hard edge blaming and recriminating?  Or do you dream of dying with an open hearted relaxation?

I think that you can make that choice.

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marcus's picture
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Hi Richard. 1. Aliveness is

Hi Richard.

1. Aliveness is NOT a premeditation. Aliveness is a fact of life. Good you understand that aliveness is not made by man and cannot premeditate aliveness as a certainty. This also means that as aliveness is present in every moment, the moment too is not made by man, and so too every moment. This further means that anything that is within a moment or moments is aliveness that man cannot do. This only means man does not do anything, every doing happens to man. Therefore man is not the doer, speaker or thinker, they all happen to him. Man only believes that he is the doer speaker and thinker.
2. You write concepts can be chosen. Concepts cannot be chosen as a certainty for aliveness, because concepts for aliveness would be aliveness too as concepts happen in a moment or moments. Therefore, concepts for aliveness as a certainty cannot be premeditated. The concept is for uncertainty and not for certainty. You confirm that aliveness cannot be premeditated and yet you say concept can be chosen. You contradict yourself because you do not understand life. This is not the first time you have contradicted yourself, you have contradicted in the last topic too, but failed to be openhearted to it.
3. The same applies to interpretations and openheartedness too, they all happen in a moment or moments which is aliveness and man does not make it. It is for uncertainty and never for certainty.
4. Situation too is aliveness, a fact of life and therefore cannot be premeditated as a certainty. A personal situation is a fact of aliveness and does not require the other to verify it.
Contradicting and not being honest is punishing yourself. Aliveness makes uncertainty the only certainty in life and certainty the only uncertainty in mind. Death is an aliveness that you cannot understand, as you have not understood the aliveness in life. Aliveness is a fantasy to you.

Marcus Stegmaier

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I have called aliveness as a certainty a working definition.

The word premeditation is yours.  Evidently I don’t know what you mean by it?  Is it like presumption?

Every time I looked, aliveness was here.  Statistically that was a sample of over a million times, and the results were 100%.  From not presumed as a certainty you travel in one swift sentence to “aliveness is present in every moment”.  That is what I found too.

1. Then you consider every moment, and then moment to moment. A moment to me is a thought, created by experiencing something and then retreating into memory (to check it out). 

Five of your sentences form a sequence that goes.

  • This means
  • This further means
  • This only means
  • Therefore man is not the doer.
  • Then you declare what man believes

(Who is this man who believes anyhow?  Is it You?)

What a horrid chain that is your own private brand of logic. None of those sentences mean anything like that to me. Your A - B - C - D  doesn’t follow to me, and I could presume to many other people.

2. Let’s further say that concepts can also be chosen is a working definition.  Let’s try to choose a few, and see if it makes any difference.  When I do that it makes enormous difference, so that I say my working definition is worth pursuing. Your statements about concepts for aliveness as a certainty is again you talking.  I didn't say that.

Then you say that I contradict myself and you are gracious enough to tell me why.  Thanks.  Another time I said I won’t tell you what to do.  Later is said “well, don’t do it", (if you don’t like the result it creates). The parenthesis were to be understood.  It is a suggestion.

3. Interpretations and openheartedness happen moment to moment.  When else could they happen?  These are the content of aliveness, not aliveness.  Interpretations are concepts.  Openheartedness is not a concept, but it is often authored by a concept, a story and descriptions.

4. A situation is also the content of aliveness.  I have never said anything accept aliveness is a certainty, (working definition) if you are alive.  All the content of aliveness is uncertain.

Arcane abstruse logic paths based only on loads of assumptions are punishing yourself and those around you.  They are a basic disconnect from other human beings. Why do you have to wiggle like a worm on a hook, just to say something about yourself?  It can't be that painful just to meet somebody on the common ground of language?

Death is an aliveness that I don’t understand.  I previously said that I could wait for that.  I'll know better when I am dead. Yes I want to first understand aliveness in life, since I am alive.  I see you say that my brand of aliveness is fantastic.  You’re right. And it is so easy.

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marcus's picture
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Richard, You can call

Richard,
You can call aliveness as a certainty a working definition, for that is the aliveness happening to you. But, it would be a presumption and not aliveness, which means presumption, is the aliveness happening to you. Presumption is an idea that is taken to be the truth on the basis of probability and not certainty. Probability means the extent to which something is likely to happen or be the case which means nothing is certain. Premeditation means planning something beforehand, Therefore, understand that you cannot premeditate aliveness as a certainty.

What you found out over a million times and the results as 100% was aliveness, that cannot be presumed as a certainty. Because, the basis of presumption is probability which means the extent to which something is LIKELY to happen is not 100%. If the probability of something likely to happen over million times was 100%, you should be in Las Vegas and
not wherever you are now. Not being honest is punishing yourself.

A moment is a thought too, if it were not a thought man would not know it. Thoughts too are thoughts that you think are made in a moment. Understand that a moment is a brief period of time of which man is not sure what it could be. Understand that a thought cannot be made within a moment, for man has not determined the time present within a moment. A moment is aliveness and so too would be all moments in which thoughts appear mysteriously. You have admitted that man cannot make aliveness which means he cannot make a moment, moments or thoughts either, for they are aliveness. Understand therefore that a thought is created and stored in the memory to appear again mysteriously. You cannot create or store it in your memory to check it out later. It all happens as aliveness.

You have contradicted twice. In this post, you said you can choose when clearly you cannot, for which you thank me in this post. You do not thank when you do not speak the truth. You forego all credibility to write wisely or experiment. In your previous forum topic ("Divide life and live only the good parts?") you wrote… I am not saying anything about what you should do. You contradict this statement by writing…Then just stop it. You write now that the words are within parentheses, and you meant it to be suggestion. Now the only words that were within quote marks and not parentheses were “doing it”. Parentheses are displayed by brackets and quote marks are not parentheses. If you had noticed the contradiction indicated to you were words in capitals, which you did not notice. Now you try to cover yourself by an afterthought. You wrote …then just stop it, now you try to tone it down by explaining that it was meant to be only a suggestion. If it were truly a suggestion you would write…I suggest you then just stop it, the words…then just stop it were in capitals indicating contradiction. You are now trying to wriggle out of the contradiction like worm out of a hook. Anyone can see your contradictions clearly by reading the forum topic "Divide life and live only the good parts?" again. Do you still believe that many other people follow your contradictions more than simple logic and reasoning like A-B-C-D?

Man believes because belief happens to him. Man cannot believe if it does not happen to him, as belief is aliveness too. Man is you me or anyone.

You feel a simple explanation is horrid, and you would not if you were openhearted to it. How honest could you be that you are openhearted in a difficult, catastrophe, or tragic situation? You do not follow A-B-C-D because aliveness is a fantasy to you. Your presumption that it would be to others too is because of the same reason.

Choice is aliveness too as it happens in a moment or moments. Therefore you cannot be certain of the choice to make. Choice happens to you and you stake a claim over it that choice is your making.

If the content of aliveness is not aliveness what else could they be? If the content of aliveness is NOT aliveness it would be deadness. Openheartedness is known only as thoughts, just as interpretations, and thoughts are concepts. If openheartedness were not thoughts you would never know openheartedness. Aliveness is surely a fantasy to you.

You write all the contents of aliveness is uncertain. This is why the only thing you can be certain about life is its uncertainty. This means you cannot premeditate aliveness as a certainty, because you are certain of aliveness only after it has happened and never before. Therefore, understand life is not made by man, life happens to man. Now does the horrid explanation sound logical and reasonable? If life were made by man he would be certain about it. Do not contradict again that man makes life. You have committed that all contents of aliveness is uncertain, and man does not make aliveness, and as life is alive every moment so would be aliveness.

What is written to you is plain simple English and all can read it, so they are not arcane. It is not abstruse either as they are easy to understand if you are wise. It would be abstruse if you are knowledgeable but not wise. It is not assumptions either, as they are all based on scientific facts and strong logic and reasoning. To think they are arcane abstruse logic paths based on loads of assumptions is punishing and deceiving yourself. All that is said is not about me but about life straight and direct. To say that it is arcane abstruse logic paths based on loads of assumptions is wriggling like a worm on a hook.

In death there are more living organisms in it than when it were alive, as they are alive in death. After you are dead you will never know anything, be sure of that, so you will never know aliveness better when you are dead. I said that aliveness is a fantasy to you, meaning imagining impossible or improbable things. If you say your brand of aliveness is fantastic, you are correct because fantastic means imaginative or fanciful; remote from reality. Again you are wriggling like a worm out of a hook.

Marcus Stegmaier

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unknown factor is the fun of it

This aliveness that you speak of is from this point, amazingly simple and is pure Love. The habits still appear, but it is NOW fun to see them in the mind and to allow this to pass. It is so very alive. This relaxation into the experiment of life has taken time. Yes there is a overview here and a choice opportunity to breath into each situation and take a different route. I like the route analogy!

Great stuff!!