You are hereForums / User Blogs / Dr V S Shankar / Time, elements and man, Bindu and Naada
Time, elements and man, Bindu and Naada
Time, elements and man
“Bindu and Naada”
By
Dr. Vijai S Shankar
www.acadun.com
Man knows that the world is made up of five fundamental elements; fire, water, air, earth space and time. Man believes that everything is physical in space including vegetation, animal kingdom and man and that all exist in time.
Man believes that birth and death happen in space and time and he needs them to make his life, prolong it and prevent death. And all of these in turn involve the participation of the fundamental five elements.
In short, man believes that daily life be it professional life, family life and social life is action filled that can be controlled, shaped as per choice or decision. Man longs for a tailor made life and who can blame him for that. It is a matter of choice after all and so man believes.
Despite choice, decision and free will man is unable to cut a design for himself a tailor made life. It appears his design for a tailor made life is dependent on others around him. It suggests that man’s life is not independent but dependent. It is an interdependent life that every man lives.
If life is interdependent it could only mean that independency for man is not only far fetched, but just plain impossible. The question arises whether man could ever live an independent life? Yes, he could the moment he understands, that life is independent and not dependent on man.
What makes life appear to be dependent is the question? It is the presence of time that inflicts such a dependency. Therefore time is precious to man. He believes time should not be wasted. He is convinced time is precious for he believes time is required to achieve as much as his heart wants and desires, and time is easily available for it is present, so he believes, in life.
But has man ever wondered where time comes from? Has he wondered who could have put time in life for him to utilise it productively or to his own benefit? Man surely wakes up either on time every day or whenever he does wake up he goes about working his day the way he wishes, plans, or to a routine.
And this is possible because he believes there is time in life. His future is time related and therefore knows he has to make the best use of time. Man seems to be in a hurry but he realises sooner or later that he has not enough of time.
It is time and Newton’s laws of motion that convince man of cause and effect. Science plays a role in strengthening the illusion that man is the doer speaker and thinker and time, cause and effect convince man that he is the doer, speaker and thinker.
Man needs to understand that physics and the laws of mass and motion neither apply nor function in the microcosmic life architecture nor in the macrocosmic life far beyond outer space.
Physics that man knows and depends upon for his livelihood operates only in between the macro and the micro cosmos. In this range, wherein man knows and knowledge prevails, the fundamental five elements are found everywhere, in the animate and inanimate as well.
The animate and the inanimate seem to function in time and are regulated by cause and effect. Life that is known by man appears to be harmonious if they are constructive by organised causes and effects, and disharmonious when the causes and effects are destructive.
Therefore man’s life is governed to achieve the best effects and for that he plans and follows the best causes. If the desired effects are not forthcoming, he begins to determine and identify the cause of it.
Science further strengths his belief that life is cause and effect orientated. But the enlightened on the other hand have proclaimed life to be causeless and effectless. How could man come to terms with the enlightened and science?
Man is inclined to trust science rather than the enlightened. This is to be expected for the conditioned mind is science oriented and enlightenment is beyond the limitations of the conditioned mind.
The human body is in the timeless ‘now’ and not the mind, therefore conclusions, opinions or interpretations of science cannot and do not hold any ground in life but only do so to and in the mind. They are merely deceptive because they make the illusory to appear real.
The question remains as to how could man understand that life is causeless and effectless? It is not enough for man to be told that life is causeless and effectless. The mind, which is science oriented needs explanation that life is causeless and effectless.
Medicine and the effects of it provide a good example to understand that life is indeed causeless and effectless. Medicines are known to cure and prevent diseases. Man is more than convinced about this fact, and it appears so too.
Medicine in the form of a capsule, tablet or liquid is ingested and the effects of it are either immediate or delayed. The effects may be the disappearance or the control of symptoms.
The disappearances of the symptoms are taken as the effects of the medicine ingested, which forms the cause. This acts as proof that life is cause and effect oriented. But life is more mysterious than this observation would suggest.
The ingested medicine does not work in isolation and this is to be understood. Every component present in the blood plays a role in conjunction with the medicine in bringing about the effect. The absence of the components would not result in the effects observed.
Now in such a scenario every component would be the cause in conjunction with the medicine. Therefore medicine cannot be attributed to be the individual cause. The cause is always collective and not isolated.
If the medicine as the cause were real, it should cure anyone man or animal. It does not cure one and all every time, if it does well and good and if it does not too bad is the verdict.
Man is not the cause of ingesting the medicine either, though he may appear to be. Life is a journey and everything in it, albeit illusory is on a journey too. The medicine that appears as if man has ingested is on its journey too.
The medicine that is meant to be ingested will be ingested and no force on earth can stop the ingestion. Conversely medicine that is not meant to be ingested will not be ingested and no force on earth can make it be ingested.
Nothing in this world is isolated everything is connected with each other for everything is made up of energy or a reflection of it. The world, man and mind is a reflection of light and sound. This is what makes life to be causeless and effectless.
Time, elements and man appear to exist independently but they do not. They are merely an auditory and optical illusion of light and sound. Life remains causeless and effectless, beginingless and endless.
Copyright: V S Shankar 2009
- 733 reads
-
Fri, 03/12/2010 - 04:41
Online
Joined: 03/03/2010
Time Element and Man
Dear Lucy,
You write,
I can see how a labelled sensation is a thought, but I still have trouble understanding how pure seeing (seeing without labelling) can be considered a thought. I understand that for thought to take place there has to be time, and time is a concept, but sensations arise as Reality.
Response : Sensation is a thought when labelled, pure seeing is seeing and not a thought and can never be known. sensation is sensation and can never be known. The seer, seing and the seen are one, the sensor, sensation and the sensed are one. Life is timeless and thoughtless
Fri, 03/12/2010 - 11:12
Offline
Joined: 01/14/2010
Time...
Response : Sensation is a thought when labelled, pure seeing is seeing and not a thought and can never be known. sensation is sensation and can never be known. The seer, seing and the seen are one, the sensor, sensation and the sensed are one. Life is timeless and thoughtless
Lucy: Yes, I agree. Pain is pain (sensation) and can never be known. It is the labelling and the separating out that falsifies it. So any thought cannot be true. Life is One, but is diverse, so sometimes Life manifests as the sensation of pain. The pain is not felt or known by an individual, but nonetheless arises as pure sensation.
Fri, 03/12/2010 - 12:36
Online
Joined: 03/03/2010
time Element and Man
Dear Lucy,
You write
Lucy: Yes, I agree. Pain is pain (sensation) and can never be known. It is the labelling and the separating out that falsifies it. So any thought cannot be true. Life is One, but is diverse, so sometimes Life manifests as the sensation of pain. The pain is not felt or known by an individual, but nonetheless arises as pure sensation.
Response: Where does sensation arise from?
Fri, 03/12/2010 - 15:02
Offline
Joined: 01/14/2010
Time..
Response: Where does sensation arise from?
Lucy: The word arise is a bit misleading because it suggests that something breaks off from the whole and has a separate existence. That is not what I meant to convey. Perhaps it would be clearer to say that "sensation is present". Lets see if I can make what I mean clearer by using the analogy of sand and sandcastle. Lets say that Consciousness (Life) is the sand (I know that Pure Consciousness has no tangible qualities, but I'm trying to make a point). If there was nothing but sand, Consciousness cannot know itself because it is all there is. If consciousness takes on the form of a sandcastle, it can experience itself as the sandcastle, it is still the sand, but now it is also the sandcastle. So sensations can be viewed as the sandcastle or any other temporary form that Consciousness or Life manifests as. Of course you need space and time for the forms to manifest, (the sand to have form of sandcastle) but that does not negate the existence of the sandcastle as sand or in this case sensation.
Fri, 03/12/2010 - 16:24
Online
Joined: 03/03/2010
Time Element and Man
Dear Lucy,
Response: Sandcastle does not exist only sand exists. Wave does not exist only water does. Sensation does not exist only energy exists. Energy is consciousness and consciousness is the first illusion of pure light, which is awareness.
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 12:41
Offline
Joined: 01/14/2010
Time,....
Energy is consciousness and consciousness is the first illusion of pure light, which is awareness.
Lucy: Even illusion is Awareness.
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 15:54
Online
Joined: 03/03/2010
Time Elements and man
Dear Lucy,
You write
Even illusion is Awareness
Response: If you mean whatever is said about awareness is illusory, it is correct. If you mean illusion is awareness then it is not worded rightly. It should be, illusion if OF awareness and not illusion is awareness
Thu, 03/18/2010 - 17:05
Offline
Joined: 01/14/2010
Time
Yes words are tricky.
Everything is Awareness, there is nothing outside of it. Full stop.
Fri, 03/19/2010 - 17:05
Online
Joined: 03/03/2010
Time Elements and man
Dear Lucy,
You write
Yes words are tricky.
Everything is Awareness, there is nothing outside of it. Full stop.
Response: Words are deceptive and are meant to be. Everything is outside of awareness as a reflection which could be admired, for it is illusory and not a reality. Only the illusoy can be admired and not the real.
Mon, 03/22/2010 - 12:20
Offline
Joined: 01/14/2010
Time...
Everything is outside of awareness as a reflection which could be admired, for it is illusory and not a reality.
Lucy: Going by my direct experience, there is absolutely nothing outide of Awareness. For something to "Be" Awareness has to be there, so how can anything, even illusion be outside of Awareness?
Tue, 03/23/2010 - 21:26
Online
Joined: 03/03/2010
Time Elements and Man
Dear Lucy,
You write;
Going by my direct experience, there is absolutely nothing outide of Awareness. For something to "Be" Awareness has to be there, so how can anything, even illusion be outside of Awareness?
Response:An experience is a thought and not an actuality. Any experience implies the presence of ego and the ego is false and so would be the experience.
Wed, 03/24/2010 - 13:06
Offline
Joined: 01/14/2010
Time...
Response:An experience is a thought and not an actuality. Any experience implies the presence of ego and the ego is false and so would be the experience.
.
Lucy: "The world is illusory, only Brahman is Real, Brahman is the world."
If Brahman makes up the world than everything must be Brahman. The flower is Brahman appearing as flower. Now you can argue that the flower is only name and form and doesn't actually exist except as a thought but even the thought has to be Brahman. Anything expressed has to be Brahman. The flower would not have any existence as an illusion if it were not also Brahman
Tue, 03/23/2010 - 21:26
#26
dizzedin
User offline. Last seen 16 hours 32 min ago. Offline
Joined: 03/03/2010
Time Elements and Man
Dear Lucy,
You write;
Going by my direct experience, there is absolutely nothing outide of Awareness. For something to "Be" Awareness has to be there, so how can anything, even illusion be outside of Awareness?
Response:An experience is a thought and not an actuality. Any experience implies the presence of ego and the ego is false and so would be the experience.
Top
* reply
Wed, 03/24/2010 - 13:06
#27
lucy
lucy's picture
User offline. Last seen 20 min 22 sec ago. Offline
Joined: 01/14/2010
Time...
Response:An experience is a thought and not an actuality. Any experience implies the presence of ego and the ego is false and so would be the experience.
.
Lucy: "The world is illusory, only Brahman is Real, Brahman is the world."
If Brahman makes up the world than everything must be Brahman. The flower is Brahman appearing as flower. Now you can argue that the flower is only name and form and doesn't actually exist except as a thought but even the thought has to be Brahman. Anything expressed has to be Brahman. The flower would not have any existence as an illusion if it were not also Brahman.
Top
* reply
Wed, 03/24/2010 - 21:43
#28
dizzedin
User offline. Last seen 16 hours 32 min ago. Offline
Joined: 03/03/2010
Time Element and Man
Dear Lucy,
You write : "The world is illusory, only Brahman is Real, Brahman is the world."
If Brahman makes up the world than everything must be Brahman. The flower is Brahman appearing as flower. Now you can argue that the flower is only name and form and doesn't actually exist except as a thought but even the thought has to be Brahman. Anything expressed has to be Brahman. The flower would not have any existence as an illusion if it were not also Brahman.
Response:Bhraman is light, not man or woman. Illusory does not mean it does not exist. Illusory means it does exist, but not in the same way as the mind thinks it does.Illusory means a reflection of Bhraman or light. Life is a play of light and sound, Bindu and Naada.
Top
* reply
Fri, 03/05/2010 - 10:56
#1
Anna
Offline
Joined: 01/25/2010
Time, elements and man...
Everything that I´ve read and heard from Shankar so far seems very logical and obvious to me. At the same time very liberating.
I think that those who believe in free will for man and in indipendency of what appears in Life and in time and cause and effect could never take in the words of a sage like Shankar. They will always feel pain and disappointment when the outcome of their actions is not as they were expecting it to be and they will always struggle and suffer to change things that are not in their control.
There can be fear for this kind of thoughts, fear that people could become passive or go out and commit crimes etc. not taking responsability for their actions anymore
This fear is of course groundless. When you see and understand the interdipandency of all phenomena appearing in Life, including yourself being a part of All, you become free and humble and your actions more pure, genuine and compassionate.You nurture respect and consideration for everything, animals and plants, humans and the whole Cosmos, understanding that it is all One.
There is yet something that I think I disagree with Shankar. I haven`t read his books yet, but I watched the interview with him on "Conscious TV". When he was asked about the suffering and physical pain, his answer was that it is an illusion of the mind and that pain doesn`t exist. Of course I understand that this is the right conclusion in conformity with the basic of the teaching but although I accept the illusiveness of the phenomena, I consider e.g. the physical pain being a real feeling though happening in this illusory realm. When I am in pain, I can`t say it is an illusion. If others are in pain, I feel compassion.
Maybe the buddhist distinction between on one side a "conventional reality" and on the other side the "Absolute Realty" is more practical to deal with. Having make this distinction and having ascertained that the conventional reality is an illusion in the Real, then such things as physical pain will always be felt as real yet in the conventional illusory world.
Top
Fri, 03/05/2010 - 19:55
#2
dizzedin
Online
Joined: 03/03/2010
response to Anna's comment Time Elements Man, Bindu and Nada
Dear Anna,
See below response to your comment on Time Elements and man Bindu and Nada
Maybe the buddhist distinction between on one side a "conventional reality" and on the other side the "Absolute Realty" is more practical to deal with.
Response: Reality is just reality and not conventional or absolute. Practicality would rquire time to exist and time is illusory, for time is a thought and not an actuality in life. Life is timeless and thoughtless and so pain cannot be an actuality but is just a thought in the mind. A thought is an auditory illusion of sound.
Having make this distinction and having ascertained that the conventional reality is an illusion in the Real, then such things as physical pain will always be felt as real yet in the conventional illusory world.
Response: Illusion is not IN the real but a reflection OF the real.
Top
Sat, 03/06/2010 - 06:24
#3
Anna
Offline
Joined: 01/25/2010
Time, Elements and...
Thank you for your answer, dizzedin.
Granted that illusion is a reflection OF reality, it doesn`t make a big difference for the living illusionary thing that feels pain.
Then let us say that physical pain IS felt as real by the reflection of the real. And in our reflected domain we also feel compassion.
And if we call it conventional or illusory maybe it doesn`t make a big difference for the way we live our everyday life either.
Top
Sat, 03/06/2010 - 15:22
#4
dizzedin
Online
Joined: 03/03/2010
Time Elements and man
Dear Anna
Response to your comment :
Granted that illusion is a reflection OF reality, it doesn`t make a big difference for the living illusionary thing that feels pain.
Response: Pain does not make any difference to the illusory man who believes he is real
Then let us say that physical pain IS felt as real by the reflection of the real.
Reponse: Let it be understood that physical pain is felt as real by the reflection of the real, who thinks that he is real but is illusory
And in our reflected domain we also feel compassion. And if we call it conventional or illusory maybe it doesn`t make a big difference for the way we live our everyday life either.
Reponse: Compassion is not a feeling it is an understanding that the other has not understood as yet. Life is not lived by man, man is lived by life. Man does not make life happen, life happens to man.
Top
Sun, 03/07/2010 - 05:38
#5
Anna
Offline
Joined: 01/25/2010
Pain and Compassion
Dear dizzedin
Thank you for your replies.
You say: Let it be understood that physical pain is felt as real by the reflection of the real, who thinks that he is real but is illusory.
To this I reply: Amen. The illusion is in pain no matter what it thinks.
As to compassion I give it the meaning of the original latin word: cum - pati, which means "to bear/tollerate some difficulties together with someone" i.e. when you understand what someone feels, you then feel the same feeling as the other.
As to man being lived by Life, I say Amen to that too.
Top
Sun, 03/07/2010 - 11:33
#6
dizzedin
Online
Joined: 03/03/2010
Time Elements and Man
Dear Anna,
The illusion is in pain no matter what it thinks.
Response : The illusion is in pain for the thought of pain is happening but is not understood to be illusory.
As to compassion I give it the meaning of the original latin word: cum - pati, which means "to bear/tollerate some difficulties together with someone"when you understand what someone feels, you then feel the same feeling as the other.
Response :compassion is not feeling what the other feels, for feelings are nothing but thoughts, compassion is understanding that the other has not understood yet that difficulties, to bear/ tolerate happen too as thoughts by the lack of understanding that there are no actions in life as an actuality, compassion is an understanding that the other has not understood yet life is a singular flow, and not a sum of events
To bear/tolerate and difficulties will be real to a man who believes life is action-filled and not a singular flow.
visit www.evolutionofmind.org the book is mind-blowing
Enjoy
Top
Wed, 03/10/2010 - 13:06
#7
lucy
Offline
Joined: 01/14/2010
Pain seems to have an eergetic quality to it
Very interesting conversation.
I don't know if I would agree that "pain is just a thought". I agree that suffering is a thought, that is the mind grabs hold of the sensation of pain and then spins a story that leads to suffering. But pain seems to have an energetic quality to it, for expample if I am blind folded and someone pricks me with a pin, the sensation will be felt and with it the conditioned response to move away no? Is Shankar saying that the sensation will not be felt as a discomfort because it has not been translated by the mind?
Top
Thu, 03/11/2010 - 09:48
#8
dizzedin
Online
Joined: 03/03/2010
response to Lucy's comment on " pain is just a thought"
Dear Lucy,
You write
I don't know if I would agree that "pain is just a thought". I agree that suffering is a thought, that is the mind grabs hold of the sensation of pain and then spins a story that leads to suffering. But pain seems to have an energetic quality to it, for expample if I am blind folded and someone pricks me with a pin, the sensation will be felt and with it the conditioned response to move away no? Is Shankar saying that the sensation will not be felt as a discomfort because it has not been translated by the mind?
Response: Sensation is a thought too. Sensation of touch could be felt blindfolded too, let alone a pin prick. Sensation is not felt as a sensation, it is felt only as a thought. The body does not feel the bed on which it sleeps once sleep takes over. The body should feel the bed if it and sensation were not thoughts.
Top
Thu, 03/11/2010 - 13:35
#9
lucy
Offline
Joined: 01/14/2010
Thanks for responding
Thanks for responding dizzediin.
I hear what you are saying, and I agree that the body does not feel the bed during sleep, but then if sensation is a thought than would it not follow that I would be able to feel the sensation of touch when I see someone else being touched?
Top
Thu, 03/11/2010 - 14:11
#10
dizzedin
Online
Joined: 03/03/2010
Time Elements and Man
Dear lucy,
You write
I hear what you are saying, and I agree that the body does not feel the bed during sleep, but then if sensation is a thought than would it not follow that I would be able to feel the sensation of touch when I see someone else being touched?
Response:You would not feel but only know that someone is touched.
Top
Thu, 03/11/2010 - 14:48
#11
lucy
Offline
Joined: 01/14/2010
Time, Elements and Man
Dear lucy,
Lucy writes
I hear what you are saying, and I agree that the body does not feel the bed during sleep, but then if sensation is a thought than would it not follow that I would be able to feel the sensation of touch when I see someone else being touched?
Your Response:You would not feel but only know that someone is touched.
Lucy writes
Yes, but if I am blindfolded and touched, thought would be the product of sensation. I feel the sensation, the mind labels it as touch or pain or whatever. When someone else gets touched, a thought arises that the other person has been touched but is not preceeded by a sensation, so thought and sensation must be independent of each other.
Top
Thu, 03/11/2010 - 15:58
#12
dizzedin
Online
Joined: 03/03/2010
Time Elements and Man
Dear Lucy,
Yes, but if I am blindfolded and touched, thought would be the product of sensation. I feel the sensation, the mind labels it as touch or pain or whatever. When someone else gets touched, a thought arises that the other person has been touched but is not preceeded by a sensation, so thought and sensation must be independent of each other.
Response: Sensation is thought too for it is a word. Knowledge of touch is thought too. The capacity of the mind to imagine is unimaginable and this is a thought too.
Top
Thu, 03/11/2010 - 16:23
#13
lucy
Offline
Joined: 01/14/2010
Time Element and Man
Response: Sensation is thought too for it is a word. Knowledge of touch is thought too. The capacity of the mind to imagine is unimaginable and this is a thought too.
Lucy: I can see how a labelled sensation is a thought, but I still have trouble understanding how pure seeing (seeing without labelling) can be considered a thought. I understand that for thought to take place there has to be time, and time is a concept, but sensations arise as Reality.
Top