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Self Realization and whole bodily Awakening
There are two fundamental dynamics regarding spiritual practice. The first, and most important, is Self/God/Reality Realization. That realization is an instant, immediate conscious realization that there is Only One Presence in Reality. The first Realization is a prerequisite that supports the progressive development and total Awakening of the whole of the esoteric anatomy of consciousness (I call the wholeness of that anatomy the 'Spiritual Cross'). Following up, there are two parts to a genuine spiritual practice. The first is the immediate, and necessary Realization of Truth, and the second is the progressive Awakening of the esoteric anatomy of consciousness through sacrifice and moment to moment allowing of God~Only. The first and necessary Realization provides the conscious substance which supports the process of 'whole bodily realization'.
I am leaving my comment here, it will be interesting to see how people respond. Please understand I am well capable of articulating all this clearly. Furthermore, please take care not to play the 'no one can place Truth/God in concept' (duh) - that notion is always understood.
Look forward to hearing from you....
S.B.
Siddha ... I posted this in another thread, but I believe it is germane to your original post in this thread, so I'm repeating it here for the general benefit of all. Feel free to comment or speculate.
Quote:"It seems the paradoxical nature of the 'both/and' Hydra must always raise its head whenever (we) try to express and discuss these questions.
There is always the "Absolute Truth," spoken as the Non-dual Understanding of Absolute Consciousness. In that state of Reality, the 'doer,' the belief in a subjective, separate self/ego associated with a body-mind, must be sacrificed in the Fire of Being.
However, there is always the relative truth, spoken from the perspective of the space-time world in which we gradually play out the Divine Plan (evolution). Hence, for that purpose, the 'doer/self/ego' of the Awakened, Fully-Realized Human is resurrected (the intended symbolism of the re-birth of Christ) from the Fire of Being, where it experiences a transmutation, or transfiguration (the true symbolism of the Hermetic Alchemists) in order to serve its true intended function in the subsequent stage of the Divine Evolutionary Plan, within linear time and space.
So in this both/and context, both the immediate Fully-Realized, Absolute Truth of Being (no-doer), AND the relative truth of being a human body-mind (doer) living and evolving through the Divine Plan -- i.e. one's evolutionary process in the space-time world, where One becomes a Divine Human -- are equally valid. It just depends on where one is coming from.
In other words, it is essentially the difference between the immediate Truth of Being, and the Truth of becoming. Both are germane to the discussion, and need not contradict one another, as both owe their existence to the same Divine Source. Another way of expressing it could be that Realization is happening NOW, whereas Awakening is always becoming, evolving, unfolding in time. One is a noun ... the other is a verb."
Nice contribution to the thread. It certainly offers an alternative wording for the same idea. I will be back on Ockham's Razor thread tomorrow, it is about to get a bit more interesting (IMHO).
Quote: "No one is big enough to contain God/Truth. We either live that Reality, or deny it moment to moment for something 'else'." and "please take care not to play the 'no one can place Truth/God in concept' (duh) - that notion is always understood...."
That is true enough -- at least the 'God' half of it, because I don't necessarily resonate with the 'concept' of some ultimate 'Truth' about 'God,' precisely because of the danger of falling into that conceptual true/not-true trap? And of course there is also the conceptual God/No-God trap, that some fall into as well ... not mentioning any names ;-)
For me, probably because of their dogmatic baggage, both 'God' and 'Truth' are such loaded words. There's that 'semantics' problem again. I suppose I resonate more with a word like 'Tao' instead of 'God/Truth.' It has an air of ineffable mystery about it. Or perhaps 'Source.'
It seems to me that any 'Truth' we actually 'talk' about will remain forever open to interpretation, just out of reach on the escalator of conceptual 'truthiness,' always somehow one more step ahead. It's a moving target. And it always seems that today's air-tight case, becomes tomorrow's broken paradigm. And that is because that absolute 'Truth' can never be captured, never be contained, never be expressed. The harder we try, the harder it falls. These days, when it comes to 'Truth' the only one that resonates is the one that resonates with my heart, and keeps expanding every day. All the other 'Truths' are simply 'true enough for now.'
The Divine Cosmos, or whatever we care to name it, must always be big enough to embrace any 'God/Truth' we can conceive, because it can infinitely expand to contain an infinite number of them. So in the sense that an ultimate 'God/Truth' can expand to contain it's own infinite creative diversity, I guess I could live with that.
As always, I appreciate your input.
Sorry, just realized that the above may have been posted twice, since I edited it and then placed it out of sequence.
I'm getting confused with all this to-ing and fro-ing from forum to forum, comment to comment, reply to reply!
I really need to get a life!
It's not difficult to create confusion here; the board is constructed linearly and lends itself to confusion.
A better construct would be that of a tree; trunk with its branches, branches with its twigs, twigs with its leaves and flowers, etc.
My suspicion is that the current construct of the board is contributing to the limited responses here.
"The first is the immediate, and necessary Realization of Truth, and the second is the progressive Awakening of the esoteric anatomy of consciousness through sacrifice and moment to moment allowing of God~Only."
The moment you mentioned the "s" word here, or sacrifice, my hands began to instinctively scratch my shaved head.
Huh? Sacrifice? Sacrifice is certainly a popular notion in many a dogmatic religions, but...
please explain what sacrifice has to do with...
washing dishes when you are washing dishes.
TIA.
It is a sacrifice of self assertion. Throw oneself onto a sword and don't look back. Sacrifice the habit of ego, that sacrifice is the habit of not allowing reality to Be.
S.B.
Thanks for your response, SB.
It's an interesting idea.
The idea of a habit having the power to not allow reality to Be.
That's an awful lot of power that you're willing to consign to a habit.
Thanks again.
Consider that the habit is the accepted world view of the individual, it becomes the filter of identity. If you want you can get into the habit of viewing reality not As it is, but how a person thinks It IS. Truly, there are people that have not Realized Reality, and the Everlasting Conscious Quality of Reality. The habit of this and that, of that and this, the labeling of this and that, and attaching and avoiding this and that, are all makings of that habit. It is self created and has no value in Spiritual Sadhana.
S.B.
Quote:"please explain what sacrifice has to do with washing dishes when you are washing dishes."
As always, Peter, you find the soft under belly.
Perhaps the only sacrifice (if that's the appropriate term) that need be made, is the sacrifice of any judgment/attachment/story about it, such as "I hate washing dishes, why me?" or "My dishes suck, I need better dishes, like my neighbor's dishes," or etc, etc. After all, 'IT' is just washing dishes, nothing more, nothing less, it 'speaks' for itself, nothing else required.
Just wash the dishes, then forget about it!
Interesting. For me, the actual Realization did not take hold until there was an experiential realization of it in the body; there was almost a dissolution of the apparent "separte self" into the whole. Only the breath remained and this breath seemed to be the breath of the One.
Very eloquent and thought provoking.
Brings to mind a question:
Is 'Awakening' the Divine downloading his/her divinity to upgrade (or awaken as) the human operating system, or is Awakening the human uploading his/her humanity to upgrade (or awaken as) the Divine operating system?
Just curious as to your opinion on that.
Regards
The primary communication is All Is Divine, before the body/mind takes time to consider such ideas. Therefore, the idea of downloading one into another does not follow. Rather, it is the Divine transfiguring the conscious relationship of the body/mind with All. So, nothing is upgraded, although life after Self Realization is substantially supported consciously by eternal peace.
We may be sharing the same concept here. But, the human condition Is Divine (contrary to the separative or ego mind perspective), and immediate God/Truth/Self Realization supports the process of capitulating the body/mind's vast spectrum of consciousness through the Transcendent Everlasting Presence of Reality. The process relates to the purging of the seeking activity; the kind of activity that is confused with simply being alive. Thus, the body/mind does not need to discard or reject the human condition, or the quality of consciousness that appears as activity/change. Do nothing with it as far as labeling and/or identifying with, As and/or of that activity Only.
Truth is not the mystery, the ego is the mystery. Once the body/mind is rooted in God realization, stably and perpetually, the process of reconditioning the body/mind to respond Solely to 'The~Only' Only finds its own Way. All IS Divine, and the process we speak on here appears as an assimilation (leaving the body/mind free of all binding qualities of perspective consciousness), rather than an upgrade or download.
No one is big enough to contain God/Truth. We either live that Reality, or deny it moment to moment for something 'else'.
:]
S.B.
.
Yes sweet resonance!
Thanks for your response. Much to digest. I'll have to ponder it for a while.
Yes, I think we are essentially on the same wave length. Your words resonate with my heart, which is the only compass I trust.
Of course, it seems inevitable that we run into communication/interpretation conundrums, when we are limited to using ambiguous words to describe that which can never really be put into words. It seems that whatever semantics, metaphors, descriptors one uses, somehow they always fall short of expressing what is the felt experience. Perhaps poetry comes closest, but that too is always open to interpretation through the filter of our cultural conditioning and beliefs.
Being poetically inclined, I am often guilty of using metaphors, analogies, etc, when maybe I just need to use fewer words -- especially in philosophical discourse.
If I were to rephrase the question, what I'm getting at is this: Does the Divine awaken as the human, or does the human awaken as the Divine? And does it make any difference? Or is it one of those both/and paradoxes?
Also, one often hears how one awakens to what has been here all along (like the name of this site: 'Nevernothere'), but we just somehow forgot what we truly are. This doesn't really resonate for me. Because in my personal experience, whenever I've had those rare glimpses of the Divine peering out at the world through these human eyes, it doesn't feel like a 'remembering' -- which one would expect, if there had been a 'forgetting' -- but rather it feels more like realizing something that was there all along, but which I just never clued into before. One kinds of goes: "Duh!"
As well, your comment about the Divine transfiguring the body-mind is reminiscent of a metamorphosis that happens. I'm particularly drawn to that metaphor, because it speaks to an actual process of Nature itself, which might be extrapolated to the evolution of the spirit.
Can you elaborate?
danalomas quote: If I were to rephrase the question, what I'm getting at is this: Does the Divine awaken as the human, or does the human awaken as the Divine? And does it make any difference? Or is it one of those both/and paradoxes?
Why differentiate?
Regarding Realization being like remembering: the perpetual everlasting reality has no experience of perspective consciousness. Sort of along the lines of the idea which says: the infinite cannot Ever experience the finite; consequently, there would have to be a complete transmutation from to another, thus, the inevitable changing of identity/'point of view'. You cannot become a bird and a human simultaneously. Once one changes into a bird the human condition of consciousness must be abandoned; the Transcendent Reality Is both changing and unchanging without being bound to either perspective. Therefore, the Transcendent does not have experiences, perspectives, 'points of view' and/or world views, and therefore Lives simultaneously As both without actually appearing solely as either one.
There exist Solely 'The~Only'. The human is Divine. No paradox in any of this, unless you consider the 'Transcendent Transcending of Transcendence' the same as a paradox. Only the Only Is, and It appears As All.
S.B. :D
the human is more than the divine.
Trouble maker! Or as we say in Canada "shit disturber!"
Go back to sleep!
shut up old goat, any more and i might fall in love with you..
just shut up and mind your business, change your diapers and go back to sleep...allways so meek, accepting everything!
are you a girl?
Why do you want to know?
I am both/and, neither/nor ...
When will you ever learn?
Idiot!
That helps I think. I appreciate your input and patience.
I'm a Divine human, and I can live with both/and as not being a paradox ... if I have to ...
I guess ;-)
Enjoying this conversation... Thanks for sharing. :]
S.B.
I'm not really so interested in deconstructing the realization experience, as some definitive, empirical, objective reality. That is a bit like dissecting a butterfly to find out what makes it so beautiful. It kind of defeats the purpose. The experience 'speaks' for itself, subjectively, and that is quite sufficient.
But because I'm a Poet at Heart, I just want to be as authentic as possible when transcribing the experience into words -- which I feel helplessly compelled to do -- so that others may get a true enough sense of it.
I want it to sound as 'real' as linguistically possible.
I'm a bit obsessive/compulsive when it comes to words :)
Consider that all humans have a brain, heart and a spine; all humans share the same spiritual anatomy, we share the same esoteric anatomy within the body/mind form. I am interested in talking about the universal qualities of Realization, and how that Realization manifests through the body/mind.
S.B.
anyway I will repeat myself again...
this is not an old quote of mine as i am not so old...
human to me any given day ,night , mid day is more allways more than divine.
>>>>There are two fundamental dynamics regarding spiritual practice.
it is absolutely ridiculous to even think that spirituality can be practiced.
>>>>>..... is Self/God/Reality Realization. That realization is an instant, immediate conscious realization that there is Only One Presence in Reality.
you mean to say if you die I die too.???
if it is the body that dies , then how come it be one presence , when being absent in the body?
>>>>>. Please understand I am well capable of articulating all this clearly.
must have got it by heart by now!
>>>>>Look forward to hearing from you....
Then listen. I know for sure as clear as a day, that while I sleep today , eating like a pig, there are people who must not have eaten for days. And that is why enlightenment, realisation, GOD and also DEVIL all all are lies and worth shit.
The use of the word "practice" can be exchanged for many words; Grace is one of them. How about asking what a word means before assuming conclusion. I can see your way of communicating on this forum is forceful, and many times inconsiderate. You are not the only person that understands language is limited, and not Truth.
Regarding the rest of your rant: enjoy the show - if you find any comment of mine to be a 'lie and worth shit'; please feel free to ignore the rest of my comments. I am not bound to language, and your attempts to trap what is being said does not contribute to the conversation.
S.B.
>>>>>The use of the word "practice" can be exchanged for many words; Grace is one of them. How about asking what a word means before assuming conclusion.
I will not. It is for you to take that responsibility before using that word. its your obligation not mine.
grace does not come to humans it comes "from' humans
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>>>>>I can see your way of communicating on this forum is forceful, and many times inconsiderate. You are not the only person that understands language is limited, and not Truth.
I do not fear what I understand and what I dont understand.
if language is not the truth then are you lying?
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>>>>Regarding the rest of your rant: enjoy the show - if you find any comment of mine to be a 'lie and worth shit'; please feel free to ignore the rest of my comments. I am not bound to language, and your attempts to trap what is being said does not contribute to the conversation.
so thats what is is "your" show!
anyway do not evade my question in propped up I am this I am that and first with out such cowardice answer this very very simple question....
if there is only one presence....why dont all die when one dies....
you did claim to ve very capabale of "explaining"...one one hand....and on the other say language is limited.
of course its your trump card when ypu hit a road block.
enlightenment , two stage realisation utter nonsense..
only to make cowards out of men/woman and mint money.
quote from angryidiot: if there is only one presence....why dont all die when one dies...
Presence does not die.
The rest of your comments will be ignored. Apparently you know everything.
human is anytime more than divinity or any thing else.
for his inborn nature is not to fear.
that is ...having no fear as to any/all states of being either of the past or of the present or of the future, including the state of being fearless.
my fellow human being , even if he is a rapist or a murderer ( that if it is my duty to punish him that I will fearlessly is another thing)....but even he...is more precious, more divine than any/all Gods can ever be.
that there is an enlightenment, two stage three stage etc etc and it should be practiced or graced etc etc etc is an attempt to make a KING a Beggar.......
every day I go to office and along the way are men/women in their sixties , seventies begging for 1 rupee with shivering hands....I look into their eyes...
which damn GOD do I think I need? what damn enlightenment was I talking about?
what GOD DAMN right do I have to call a or any human less than anything or in need or requirement of anything?
a true seeker is the one who can understand this anger...
call me a bastard for all that I care...in that moment where you take up a stand and call me that...in that moment ..that is what i want to see again.for that is more than a GOD(if there is one), and that is what a GOD selflessly would want(if there is one)..even if it is calling me a bastard....thattaking of a stand, that confidence, that taking up of a thing...HEAD ON!
that is what true enlightenment is. IT is everyones , not just to the philosophical elite who cook up 2 stage 3 stage enlightenments,
it is everyones inborn allways existing and regularily happenning nature or the true self...regularily happenning to everyone , every day!. that fearlessness , that taking of a thing head on ...that taking up of a thing head on....
human is allways allways "more"...than all divinity can ever ever dream to be.
Quote: " I know for sure as clear as a day, that while I sleep today , eating like a pig, there are people who must not have eaten for days. And that is why enlightenment, realisation, GOD and also DEVIL all all are lies and worth shit."
My friend reminds me of yet another story ... I'm fond of stories, you may have noticed:
One evening an old Cherokee told his grandson about a battle that goes inside people.
He said, "My son, there is a battle between 2 "wolves" inside us all.
One is Evil. It is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.
The other is Good. It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith."
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather:
"Which wolf wins?"
The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed."
So I suppose one could just take a 'fearless' stand, stop eating like a 'pig' and feed the starving people instead. No need to wait for some non-existent God to do it.
What does one have to lose, except one's own precious life?
But would beileve it. Only yesterday I was taking my evening walk and there they were..
The 2 cherokees! The older one had a huge bandaid on his bottom. I also has a converstaion with them and to my pleasent suprise the younger one , the grandson was named donlomos.
I thought the name reminded me of someone but i still cant recall who!
Anyway what hapenned was this. It so happenned a huge homo sexual cherokee it seems started to harass and rape the grnad father , while they were taking an evening walk and the grand father yelled for the grand son to help him (the grand father and not the other cherokee) out.
“stop him, stop him, beat him up , dont now how but do it fast son”!
To this the grand son begged the other huge cherokee” peace be with you, let joy be with you, let goodness be with you , in kindness please allow my grandpa to go I ask you with great humility in my heart, let the serenity be for the old man...?”
F!@#$ off said the huge chipmonk and finished the job and thus the bandage to the old mans bottom!
The grand father took hold of the grand son after wards and asked ” were you not even a bit angry? Did you not even think of my sorrow? Dont you resent not stopping him somehow? beating him or some how stopping him with arrogance, superiority or what ever”?
To this the grandson replied...but paaaaa ...that wolf died a long time back. Here I bought you a pack of bandages, just in case.
Anyway...
>>>>>>>>>So I suppose one could just take a 'fearless' stand, stop eating like a 'pig' and feed the starving people instead. No need to wait for some non-existent God to do it.What does one have to lose, except one's own precious life?
Yes I completely agree. One could , fearlessly, if he/she feels it is fitting to do so.
That is why the human is allways more than the divine.
The 'evil' wolf is now howling with laughter and your hilarious story! Because he gets fatter by the minute.
Meanwhile, the poor 'good' wolf is becoming skin and bones.
At least we seem to agree on one thing. Feed the hungry and shut the F**K up!
But then I think we truly prefer to agree to disagree ... it is so much more interesting!
ON PRESENCE....
>>>>presence does not die...(siddha buddha says)
Then your presence is abscent in "death" and is not a true presence...and more so not the only presence....because there is also death apart from it.
>>>siddha also says..apparently you seem to know everything...your rest of the comments will be ignored...
I do not know nor care if it is possible or impossible to know everything. HOWEVER IT IS VERY MUCH POSSIBLE NOT TO FEAR WHAT ONE KNOWS(however limited it might be) and what one does not know( HOWEVER VAST IT MIGHT SEEM TO BE)
such nature is inborn to every one and is everyones.
AND ON IGNORING MY COMMENTS:..
is the other way of saying, you are scared of them.and are gutless...is there a 2 and half stage realisation...?what are the charges?
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On wolfs.....
the inborn basic nature of all humans is simply this...
having no fear of/for all/any state(s) of being either of the past, of the present or of the future.
that is why it is impossible for a human to question conclusively "what Am I"...forget about answering it...for he the human is fearless and more that all divinity can ever be.
similarily a thousand wolves insdie all evil let them be...cannot equal what a human is...
as I keep saying...no god(goodness, peace, sereneity etc etc)nor devil(evil , anger, etc etc) equal a human.
a human because of his inborn nature is allways , anytime more than these can ever be.
that is what a GOD9there being one) would want...for he/she is a God
that is what a devil would say other wise...
Understanding presence and death..
One presence or presence is I AM.
It is a very famous technique made very popular by one of the modern Advaita Gurus
Nisarga.
Try and focus on this I AM , the universal presence, he encouraged the seeker and also added , remember I AM is also a lie….the first lie.
Buddha too called “I AM “ a conceit…he equated enlightenment or liberation with plucking out the roots of I AM.
But for the one who thought Buddha Preached “ I AM NOT” he gives a warning…I AM , I AM NOT….these are a useless maze of thoughts the master warns
Understanding this Presence I AM and DEATH:
In the nisarga technique the seekr does get easily to the “point” of presence. Because the seeker can actually “feel”..the presence….that pure sense of I AM…
First he instinctively understands that it is the same presence in every fellow human being…I AM I AM I AM I Am….he also very naturally and easily is also able to link up all the thoughts and actions to this I AM…not only in himself but in the case of every fellow human being…..he crystal clearly is able to see that everything that a human does..it pivots around this sense of I AM….
Then this oneness with fellow human beings naturally spreads to all things in life…
Generally at this stage , and in laughter, the seeker realises that he…the individual…the person has no tangible substantiality….and concludes that the ego is an illusion.
Whats left is only this perception of this I AM , this center , this throb I AM I AM I AM…
In some seekers it is natural that this sense if felt in the solar plex,every time he feels it and more and more he feels it , the area there even heats up.
All these are naturally related to kundalini and what not….. and the seeker thinks that spiritual progress , and enlightenment and NON DUALITY are near by if not already achieved. Many pleasant experiences follow.
It is here the warning of a Buddha or Nisarga the chief proponent of the technique is to be heeded…
I AM is a lie?!
The seeker cannot digest this. What ? this oneness is a lie…? How can it be…how can such goodness be a lie…..etc etc etc….
----------------------------------------------understanding Bondage-----------------------------
There is only one bondage….fear of the past , fear of the future, fear of the present…
Fear that….that and this happened OR that and this is happening OR that and this would happen…
Apart from this there is bondage to be free from this is liberation/enlightenment/realisation.
Buddha calls these(this and that happening…happened,will happen etc ) States of Being..by saying all states of being should be crosses it does not mean there should be NO I or NO STATE OF BEING OR NON BEING …but rather….
There should be no fear for a /any state of being…or non being!
Buddha used the word craving in the place of fear. But I fearlessly state fear is the correct word.( why do I keep stating I state I state…? That only the fearless will understand, others will fail)
I AM or presence is a fear for not being….in other words Death.
I AM NOT is a fear for being …..in other words LIFE.
I AM what I AM means I have no fear for any state of being, past present and future..including I AM or I AM Not.
That is how the barrier of I AM and I AM NOT is crossed.
Now how does one tackle fear…not by illusionising it (the object) or also not by calling it a reality….but by taking it head on….remember we are taking about fear.
In other words fearlessness has no reason….reasons include NO-self, Self Is Brahman etc etc etc ,
Head on….it is the basic nature of every human, available to everyone,
Happening daily …… IN EVERYONES LIFE……
How the seeker gets to this fearlessness is spirituality…no other…
Progress is marked by the gradual and finally the full dismissal of “how” from the seekers presence..similarily with “why” etc …
Because fearlessness has no reasons, IN FACT IT IS DESPITE ALL THE REASONS.
Head on head on head on
Once again, my heart resonates with the above ... it 'speaks' to my heart, like music to my ears.
I would only change a couple of words here or there, but what do a few mere words matter, amongst friends?
Keep it up! Or I will have to bash you with that proverbial broom again!
wow...this is exactly true ...amazing xxxxx
living as this in human form is a cross..constant moment to moment choices of will and truth and allowing and forgetting and re membering ...all nowadys being seen as sooo fine.... :)
sometimes it does feel like im in the juicer blender ! being juiced...lol
jane hamilton
one love , many colours xxx