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Real Peace reflects the illusion of peace and un-peacefulness.
Man lives in the duality of peace and un-peacefulness. Man is always on the search for peace. He even tries to focus his attention on peace, because spiritual teachings have told him that Peace is his true nature. Now, as man is on search for his true nature, he tries to find it "out there".
There are images and sounds happening in consciousness, light and sound. One image is replaced by another. One thought, which is sound, follows another. Feelings, seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching are thoughts appearing in consciousness.
As one is replaced by another there seems to be a movement. This creates the illusion of a changing focus of attention. In fact there is no attention directed to something, but an ongoing spontaneous change of the content of consciousness. The illusion of attention is based on the illusion of an ego being able to choose the content of consciousness.
Peace is not something which could be focussed on. Peace is not an object. If it were, there would be the opposite of peace too and this is the duality the ego lives in. The ego always tries to focus on peace and to avoid the opposite of it.
The very search of the ego for peace, the very attempt to focus on “peace“ equates with un-peacefulness. If this search of the ego is understood as being illusory, it might not disappear, but it will not appear real any more and this is real Peace.
Peace could never be experienced. Peace is man‘s true nature. The real could never be experienced, only the illusory. But if the illusory is perceived as illusory and not as real, in every speck of the illusion there will be perceived the reflection of that Peace which reflects itself as peace and un-peacefulness. The hole illusory world will be experienced with the underlaying fragrance of Peace.
There will be no separation any more, nothing to prefer and nothing to reject. Duality will be experienced as the One appearing as two. The duality of the mind will be enjoyed in every moment of man‘s life, illusory it may be.
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May I suggest that the only thing that the apparition of me and the apparition of you can "understand" are other apparitions?
And that the only "understanding" that the apparition of us can have are apparitional ones.
Peter: And that the only "understanding" that the apparition of us can have are apparitional ones.
Response: Yes, as consciousness is itself illusory everything appearing in consciousness has to be illusory too.
In many Satsangs it is often said: "You shouldn't try to understand That! Give up." The spiritual ego is conditioned to believe that all "understanding" is useless. Then it sits quietly in the meditation-room or practices "being aware" while doing daily work like for example to wash the dishes or to vacuum-clean the carpet. But what happens, if after this "silence" the wife of husband, children of whoever comes along? Then the problems, illusory they may be, are not understood a bit and make the "silence" disappear.
Real Peace reflects the illusion of peace and un-peacefulness - this has to be understood with clarity! Understanding the illusory reveals the real. The real could never be understood!
So be careful: Understanding which leads to the conclusion that the world, man, mind, actions and individuals are real, is knowledge.
Understanding which leads to timelessly being aware that the world, man, mind, actions and individuals are illusory, is wisdom.
Only the illusory could be enjoyed and not the real. But the illusory could only be enjoyed if it is understood to be illusory and not real. Enlightenment is the understanding/clear seeing/experiencing of the illusory as illusory, it is not about experiencing something "real".
Of course it also could happen that someone is lost in the attempt to understand and is trapped in his mind. And it would not be much better to be trapped in endless attempts to understand the illusory compared to the attempts to understand the real.
It is very helpful to have personal contact to a master (if it happens). If you are around a master, he will guide you. He knows your state of mind even better than you do, for mind is mind and he has understood the mind. Then it is more likely that your mind doesn't just make his words into new concepts and beliefs. And if it happens he will be there to help you being aware of the tricks of the mind.
Don't miss the opportunity to get in "personal contact" with a living master. For example:
"Of course it also could happen that someone is lost in the attempt to understand and is trapped in his mind. And it would not be much better to be trapped in endless attempts to understand the illusory compared to the attempts to understand the real." - Marcus
Thoughts of "this is real and that is not" are part of the dream. It's what make the dream a dream: "this, not that".
The moment that you are embracing "something is, something is not", you are participating in a dream.
What brings many people to virtual and non-virtual satsangs is the desire to be the dreamer, not the dream.
But there may not be one.
Peter: "Thoughts of "this is real and that is not" are part of the dream. It's what make the dream a dream: "this, not that"."
Response: Right. But neither Marcus nor Shankar ever said "this is real and that is not". ALL Known, all perception, every thought, all content of consciousness and consciousness is illusory!
The Real and the Illusory - this has to be understood with clarity - the illusory is a reflection of the real. Read "The real and the illusory" by Dr. Vijai Shankar on the forum and it will become clear to you what was meant.
Marcus: "Right. But neither Marcus nor Shankar ever said "this is real and that is not". ALL Known, all perception, every thought, all content of consciousness and consciousness is illusory!"
I must've mis-read what you said below. It appeared to me that you were making such a distinction.
"And it would not be much better to be trapped in endless attempts to understand the illusory compared to the attempts to understand the real."
Peter: I must've mis-read what you said below.
Response: Misunderstandings are the normal job of the mind. So thanks for giving the opportunity to make it clear.
My pleasure.
I'll just add, with regard to what you said here...
"And it would not be much better to be trapped in endless attempts to understand the illusory compared to the attempts to understand the real."
both traps are equally traps.
Since any consideration of real versus illusory is, in itself, an illusion as well.
Question: Since any consideration of real versus illusory is, in itself, an illusion as well.
Response: If it becomes a concept it is an illusion, yes. If it leads to wisdom, no! Then it is of course also illusory, but not an illusion (meaning: a deception).
Please read the reply on this forum topic: "Lost in concepts? Lost in "understanding"? Be around a master!"
Then, perhaps, one day you might consider that the concept of wisdom is illusionary as well.
Or not.
Whatever you prefer your dream to include, of course.
Peter: "Then, perhaps, one day you might consider that the concept of wisdom is illusionary as well."
Response: The concept of wisdom is a deception/illusion and illusory, yes. Wisdom is not a deception, but of course illusory, as consciousness itself is illusory. Consciousness is the first illusion of Awareness.
"Consciousness is the first illusion of Awareness." - Marcus
I'm apperceiving that you are inferring awareness is not an illusion then. Since you've labeled consciousness as awareness' first illusion.
I encourage you to consider that awareness is an illusion too, however.
All that illusions beget... are other illusions.
Be they wisdom, consciousness, or awareness.
Question: I encourage you to consider that awareness is an illusion too, however.
Response: With "Awareness" is not meant "to be aware/conscious of something". "Awareness" is pure light reflecting itself as the illusion. And yet it is one and the same. The One which appears as Two. The real which appears as the illusion.
If I remember rightly, you will find exactly this sentence also in "I am That" by your favorite Nisargadatta Maharaj!
"'Awareness'" is pure light reflecting itself as the illusion. And yet it is one and the same." - Marcus
"A" reflecting itself as "B" is a subject-object dynamic. And the subject-object dynamic, which includes time and space, is the essential element of duality, or the dream.
It is also the language of the dream (subject-object).
It's perfectly understandable that we may feel confident in our dream-based linguistic efforts to describe the undescribable.
It's still, however, the language of the dream. Which helps keep the dream intact.
Peter: It's perfectly understandable that we may feel confident in our dream-based linguistic efforts to describe the undescribable.
Response: There was no effort to describe the undescribable. It was just used a word for it: "Awareness". Only the illusory could be described, known, experienced, understood. But it should be allowed to use a word for the "undescribable" as you also did! You call it "the undescribable"!
Peter: It's still, however, the language of the dream. Which helps keep the dream intact.
Response: If you want to say that all language is misleading than you yourself should not use it to try to explain what you think that I miss in my understanding.
"If you want to say that all language is misleading than you yourself should not use it to try to explain what you think that I miss in my understanding." - Marcus
I did not say that all language is misleading, Marcus. Those are your words.
I did say, however, that our dream-based language consists of the subject-object dynamic. And that that dynamic supports keeping the dream intact.
The only things that our language can lead us to... are conceptual apparitions and mirages, selectively (ap)perceived as real.
And I do not offer the observations that I do because I think that someone may be missing something in their understanding of something.
That may be your motivation for offering some observations of yours, but it rarely is mine.
In point of fact, Marcus, I am a big fan of uncertainty. And even a larger fan of being very comfortable with uncertainty.
Which is why I sometimes offer an observation in response to another observation which is cloaked with certainty.
Peter: "Which is why I sometimes offer an observation in response to another observation which is cloaked with certainty."
Response: What was shared by Marcus is the certainty that anything known is uncertain. This is meant by "all known is illusory" and this has to be understood.
If I were not certain in this point I would not share it! If your mind interprets this as "an observation which is cloaked with certainty" this is your interpretation only.
"If I were not certain in this point I would not share it!" said Marcus.
Certainty, like every other appearance, is transient. It appears and dis-appears.
Truth is no exception.
Neither is Awareness (both are capitalized because that is how you identify them).
Since you prefer to only share things that you are certain about, Marcus, I will invite you to open that door much wider and share things that you are not certain about.
The requirement of certainty can often make one's observations very dense and solidified.
And cause them to appear other than transient, which is their essence.
I look forward to you sharing some things that you are uncertain about.
It will celebrate the transiency of all our observations.
Peter: "If I were not certain in this point I would not share it!" said Marcus.
Response: The mind picks out sentences as quotes and listens to its own interpretation only: Peter: "Certainty, like every other appearance, is transient. It appears and dis-appears." This "certainty" would be just knowledge, point taken.
The words of a Sage have to be understood as a timeless understanding, not by the ego as knowledge. Being free of the mind is a constant celebration of life as it is and needs no affirmation or certainty of thoughts in any way, it is the certainty itself.
Don't get confused by words. Language is dual by its very nature. And there will never be a non-dual language. Certainty about the illusoriness of all known is not knowledge. It is living the "not knowing", it is freedom of thoughts and yet thoughts as sound are there.
"Certainty" about the understanding of life in the sense of wisdom is independent of all thoughts and therefore free of all doubts in the mind.
Thank you for sharing. It is a joy to read and an even greater joy to understand it.
Even if the ego were able to focus on "peace" intentionally, the ego wouldn't have any proof for what is peace and what is un-peacefulness. The ego is too quick in concluding that peace is not everywhere.
As the ego could not control "attention", there is only the sense of being in control and no real ability to control. This sense of being able to control the experience is un-peacefulness. If it is understood that only ever that which is meant to appear in consciousness will appear, the desire to change experiences will subside. And then there is the seeing that peace is all there is.
But it has to be understood what the "problem" of the ego is and why it concludes that some experiences are "good" and other experiences are "bad". It is the feeling which is attached to the experience. The ego is not at peace with a certain experience, if there are feelings which the ego wants to avoid. It is very hard for the ego to understand that feelings could never ever be avoided if they are meant to be.
So in addition to the feeling itself an other feeling arises: The resistance against the experience. If this resistance is seen to be useless, Peace will be seen in this resistance as well as in the unwanted feeling as well as in the experience.
The attempt to change feelings makes them appear real. Their apparent reality lays in the repeated rejection of them. This repetition makes them appear solid, but they aren't, they just appear again and again, if there is resistance to them.
And every experience is just illusory. The sense of doership, the belief to be able to make unwanted feelings, experiences, situations disappear, makes the illusion appear real. Because the experience, the situation and the feeling are illusory they could not be changed: The illusory changes all the time, unpredictably. How could anything be changed which is constantly changing anyway?
Enjoy the show of life in your mind and don't try to change it. (THIS IS NOT AN ADVICE WHAT TO DO, IT IS MEANT TO MAKE YOU AWARE OF THE USELESS ATTEMPT OF THE EGO TO CONTROL LIFE!) Then it will never appear real to you.
Everything appears just once and then disappears. So there is no point in rejecting it - if this happens, you will miss Life! Peace is all there is, trust in Life is needed. If it happens to you, you are happy all the time.
If man’s sense of doerhip were real, would there be any need for him to experience unwanted feelings? Unwanted feelings arise when, for example, somebody does or says something which we dislike. In other words, when there is a discrepancy between what somebody does or says and our expectation of that person. But why hope or wait for the other to change? Why expect the other to change? If man were the doer he could simply modify his own expectation in such a way that the discrepancy would disappear. He would have peace at his fingertips because he could "solve" his problem of unwanted feelings by “synchronising” his own expectation of the other with what the other does or says, thus dissolving the discrepancy. But we cannot change ourselves at will (at least, I do not see how), and yet we expect the other to change so that we could be at peace!
Man’s sense of doership holds a promise: the potential to intervene in life. But man should ponder whether his sense of doership could really deliver any promise. As far as I am concerned: man's “potential” to intervene in life is illusory, similar to the potential of a mirage of a well in the desert to quench thirst. To me this understanding invites admiration, trust and lasting peace.
Yes. The illusion appears so real! But there are many contradictions in man's beliefs. An intelligent enquiry, if it happens, will soon come to the understanding that life is not what it seems to be.
Marcus:
"So in addition to the feeling itself an other feeling arises: The resistance against the experience. If this resistance is seen to be useless, Peace will be seen in this resistance as well as in the unwanted feeling as well as in the experience."
Wisdompoint:
This is 'Essencing'. But wo/man can not live of Essencing alone. S/he is accountable for 'Presencing'. There is an outgoing and a returning arch in every life form. We breathe in and we breath out. The returning arch is essencing and merging. The outgoing arch for wo/man is individuation and creation via thinking. If One understands both at the same time, there is no more so called 'ego problem', but complete account-ability and agency.
'Peace'?
No one can 'be at peace' without understanding Harmony - Unity in Diversity...A root canal is of course advisable, if the tooth hurts beyond control. But we should take care to not pull it prematurely, so we have something to bite with still?
There is no essence-ing and no presence-ing. There is no doing at all. Understanding is not doing. Understanding happens. Increasing awareness of how the mind functions leads to more freedom from thoughts. All as part of the natural evolutionary process of life.
The apparent actions reflect the depth of understanding of the apparent individual. Understanding is all. The rest happens by itself. If the intention of doing is present, mind is reacting, if the intention of doing is seen to be illusory, Life responds to itself, free from the beliefs of the ego.
Man is not the thinker, speaker or doer. This understanding is enough. Everything falls into place.
"Increasing awareness of how the mind functions leads to more freedom from thoughts."
Better is to say: "freedom of thoughts". It is not meant that thoughts should or will not appear any more. Thoughts in form of sound will be present in the mind as long as man is alive. The only thing that is possible is the freedom OF thoughts, not the freedom FROM thoughts. Even after an absolute understanding of the mind thoughts will arise, but they have not the power to appear real any more. Their meaning is seen to be illusory. So meditation-practices which try to stop thoughts are not even necessary, if at all they were possible. As life makes the birds sing so it makes man speak and the mind think. This is the music of life. To perceive it like that, is freedom of thoughts. So enjoy the music of life!
The beekeeper keeps bees. It is an agency, art and cultivation, as well as an account-ability to do it as well as possible.
Life is one singular movement. Where could there a beginning and an end of an "action"? How could one "action" be separated from your body growing? Actions are part of the growing process of your body. Your body is part of the evolution of life. Life is one appearing as many.
Life makes the mind happen in form of sound appearing as words with meanings. Theses meanings seem to cut the singular movement of life into pieces. There are labels for objects, for example "stone", "tree", "animal", "plant" or "man" as well as "you", "me" or "my body" or "your body". These labels of objects are further labeled with "actions" if the images which appear in consciousness change. The illusion of movement, created by changing images, and the illusion of separated entities, created by labels, makes "actions" appear.
Furthermore there are words for "good" or "bad" actions. The classification in "good" and "bad" depends mostly on "feelings" which are just thoughts, too. After the movement of the body has begun, sound comes into man's mind, not the other way around. Life makes thoughts happen, not man. Thoughts do not conduct life.
Thoughts make the sense of doership appear real. Man is not the doer, speaker or thinker for life is just one entity reflecting itself as an illusion.
"The beekeeper keeps bees. It is an agency, art and cultivation, as well as an account-ability to do it as well as possible." - This is the dream man lives in. Wake up and be free!
It is a Three Step Program:
Step1: There is reality which is life.
Step2: There is a reflection of life.
Step3: There is the illusion of doing something in the reflection.
Result: Wake up and smell the roses! A rose by any other name IS just as sweeeeet.
Very good. Since I can remember, I had an inkling that life is it. Thanks for reminding me.
As soon as you espouse life (Physis) this way, it is the Highest Good (Ethos), and the ability to espouse life in this way is understanding (Logos). Sat (Physis) - Chit (Logos) - Ananda (Ethos)
And beyond this triangle of understanding or bliss is the ability to create out of light as the thinker.
The Singular Movement is diversified within itself in an integral and systemic way with intelligence and purpose...
Wisdompoint: "The Three Step Program"
Response: We seem to live in different worlds. In your world time appears real, in my world time appears illusory. You believe to be able to take different steps, for me different steps are arbitrary thoughts happening to me.
In my experience time is not present unless there is a thought of time. So there is just timeless being, here and now. And sometimes there is a thought, for example: "It is 12am now, I must got there and there." This is the "beginning" as well as the "end" of time for me. The past, present and future are always in the timeless now in form of sound appearing as thoughts and do not exist as a reality. "I" do not live in time, time appears in "me".
A man in the jungle without a clock sometimes looks at the sun and there is a kind of time-thought, but the rest of the day he lives in the timeless. And even if we have clocks here in our civilization, we live most of the day in the timeless, some more, some less. The frequency in which time-thoughts arise depends on the schedule one has. And the strength of the timethought on man's state of mind depends on how much he is convinced to be the doer.
For me, timethoughts arise, but are perceived as utterly illusory. They come, for example "Ah - it is such and such a time, I have to go now", and there is the clear seeing that the movement to leave the house has even begun before the thought came to me. And the movement must have begun before the thought, because life is a flow, one singular movement.
So it is not the time-thought which makes the body move. Therefore thoughts are of no importance at all to live life. Thoughts happen for the enjoyment of Life's illusion.
Quote Dr. Vijai Shankar: "Sound is produced by movement of the body. Sounds do not produce movements of the body.“
The understanding of "time" is of of the essence. Nothing is more urgent in all these discussions than understanding the nature and possibilities of "time" within the ONE. The whole Western Metaphysics and Physics is mystified by "time". The Eastern path took the easy way of dismissing a most profound and ALIVE mystery.
I agree with the quote of Dr. Shankar: "Sound is produced by movement of the body. Sounds do not produce movements of the body.“
He is always completely on target (understanding of causality). He is speaking of 'intonation'.
The response of Wisdompoint to this is: LOGOS. A human being has the capacity to consciously intonate sound to affect bodies, minds, angels, entities, and whatever else there may be in sophistication. Why? Because a human being can intonate sound consciously out of Nada.
Let us listen to Mozart, or a Vedic invocation. Sounds do not produce movements, but humans do - out of bindu and nada with sound, color, and form.
Who is dropping the pebble into the elements? The question of causation...
Wisdompoint: I agree with the quote of Dr. Shankar: "Sound is produced by movement of the body. Sounds do not produce movements of the body.“
Response: What Dr. Shankar writes is for explanation's sake on the relative level. It has to be clear to the ego that in relative terms the world does not function like it seems to be. "Understanding" is not dependent on explanations after it has happened. Words don't reach there. Words are just to explain the world as "neti neti".
Wisdompoint: He is always completely on target (understanding of causality)."
Response: I am sure that Dr. Shankar does not believe in cause and effect. If any of the Sage's words are interpreted from the ego's perspective of being the doer, the outcome is knowledge and not wisdom.
Wisdompoint: Who is dropping the pebble into the elements? The question of causation...
Response: The question "who?" only arises out of the ego's perspective which assumes that there are actions, time, individuals and mind as a reality in life. The ego has the feeling of being the doer. Therefore it asks "Who does...?"
"Sound is produced by movement of the body. Sounds do not produce movements of the body."
This statement of a true expert of non-duality clearly implies causality, not only that, it implies the very essence of causality, what moves what, and what is self moving? This implies intelligence, an order of things, cosmos, and it implies a purpose of integration towards a First Cause.
But the HUBRIS of non-duality (non-dualism) always wants it both ways, because the seeker is confused about what is actually absolute and what is not?
I sure hope that Dr. Shankar does not "belief" in anything.
Heck, he does not even "belief" in experience. I have been wondering if anyone realizes what that actually means? It is a radical proposition truly worthy of non-duality.
Setting aside experience...Try it once. What happens is tremendous and unbearable(in terms of having a body).
In the meantime, let us create out of light by truly thinking...First there is thanking - merging, then there is thinking - creative tension. The architecture of wo/man. (Refer to my previous post here..)We are able to account for that because of self-awareness.
True, real peace is a function of 'not doing'. But everyone who is embodied has joint the Gym of humanity? be proud of it and work with Creative tension towards mastery, practice your strengths, discover your weaknesses, instead of obsessing with the ego and illusion. There is no absolute peace in this situation of practicing and learning in time.
Time is the mystery itself, not an illusion.
There is a tendency to misunderstand what is meant by "experiences are not an actuality in life": If "Advaita" is misunderstood you will notice it by the impression of being not really alive, of somehow being secluded from experiences and being imprisoned in concepts - it is totally in the mind and just knowledge. If it is understood rightly you will notice it through a simple contentment and enjoyment of daily life, illusory it may be!
The spiritual search often is just an escape from daily life. In this case, all which is heard will be interpreted in a way that it causes even more problems for the apparent individual. But if the enquiry into the mind happens as an earnest and interested, playful observation with the willingness to just understand and not as an attempt to escape something, then it will lead to wisdom sooner or later.
Wisdompoint: "I sure hope that Dr. Shankar does not "belief" in anything.
Heck, he does not even "belief" in experience. I have been wondering if anyone realizes what that actually means? It is a radical proposition truly worthy of non-duality."
Response: Dr Shankar believes in an experience. But experiences are just a belief and not the truth. The illusory could be experienced as illusory or as real. If it is taken to be real, the experience will appear as a "problem" to the ego. The experience appears real to the ego because of the desire to only have good experiences and the resistance against so called bad experiences.
Experiences perceived as illusory are an enjoyment, independent of the ego's judgements. This understanding is enlightenment. But it is not something extraordinary. It is more like constantly being aware that "There is nothing wrong with what is just happening", however not as a thought, it's just to explain it here. It is not a state of avoidance of experiences or feelings. Every feeling is welcome and no feeling needs to be grasped. So they don't appear real and happen if they are meant to happen.
Quote Dr. Shankar: "Illusory experiences are required to maintain the illusory life appear real to the ego. An experience is a thought and not an actuality in life."
Quote Dr. Shankar: "Illusory experiences are required to maintain the illusory life appear real to the ego. An experience is a thought and not an actuality in life."
...And thinking is an experience, at least with Wisdompoint. Further, there is no difference between "illusory experience" and an "actuality in life". An "actuality ln life" MUST be experienced and IS thinking from an integral perspective of non-duality.
Wisdompoint: Further, there is no difference between "illusory experience" and an "actuality in life".
Response: The difference is, that an experience if it were an "actuality in life" would be dependent on cause and effect. But this is not the case in this illusory world. Therefore every experience is just thoughts and there is no cause and effect in life but only in the mind. The notion of cause and effect leads to problems of what to do for the ego which are seen as illusory if the experience is perceived as being illusory and not real.
You lost me there. We may be straining the limits of language?
My FEELING is that we are maintaining the "ego", "mind" and "illusion" in order to get rid of it? Some kind of recycling program?
A dramatization of un-thinking. A Comedy of errors...
Just think - ONE, any problems with that? Just experience - ONE...
Maybe, it is all about the avoidance of suffering in the end?
Wisdompoint: cause and effect... You lost me there.
Response: It just depends on the perspective. From the perspective of the character in the play, there seems to be cause and effect. From the perspective of the audience it is clear that the "cause" and the "effect" are just part of the script, metaphorically speaking. And yes, from this perspective the "I" is seen through, it has no reality as a doer any more.
Wisdompoint: My FEELING is that we are maintaining the "ego", "mind" and "illusion" in order to get rid of it? Some kind of recycling program?
Response: Yes, this is the "feeling" if this "message" is perceived by the ego which still believes in real cause and effect. The mind will never really understand but just intellectually and therefore be confused. Deeper understanding is trust happening that the mind is just sound and not the doer. Simply understand that nothing was ever meant as an advice to do something. "Understand!" does not mean, the ego should do it. Just watch, if it happens.
Wisdompoint: Maybe, it is all about the avoidance of suffering in the end?
Response: It is about the deep understanding of the roots of suffering without the attempt to escape from it as an illusion. The one who tries to "avoid" suffering is the mind as well. Only trust in life makes you stay with "what is" and then see what happens.
The illusory "ego", "mind" and "illusion" don't have to be "maintained in order to get rid of it". If ever they were real, only then they could be either maintained or got rid of. But the illusory has to be seen through as being illusory and not real. And the illusory will be there for enjoyment.
Bravo! A masterpiece of non-dualistic rethorics....Chasing its own tail of conceptualization, PROJECTED from the throne of absolute understanding as "ego", "mind", and "illusion", dualistically, while denying duality at the same time.
David Copperfield can learn something from this vanishing act! Well done.
Wisdompoint: "David Copperfield can learn something from this vanishing act!
Response: Life's magic show projects Copperfield too. If anybody learns this lesson life teaches humanity, he will understand that it is not Copperfield making the magic illusions but life. And the whole wakingstate will be a magic show to the witness, a sophisticated ego.
Duality is not denied but revealed to be illusory and not real. Life projects a rhetorical masterpiece in form of sound to make you understand the beauty of the illusion.
Life is not a "magic show", it is an engagement. There is no "illusion" in this engagement, especially not at the point of self-awareness, where time accelerates tremendously.
There is a lot of work to be done.
Andreas: "There is a lot of work to be done."
Response: For work to be done there has to be time as a reality. Time is a thought too and not a reality in life. Such is the power of illusion!
Clapping with one hand?
Time is engagement, not illusion or a thought.
However, THINKING can work with time. That is very important to understand.
Andreas: THINKING can work with time.
Response: The movement of thoughts projects the illusion of time. Time is absent when thoughts are absent. All the ego knows about time is just knowledge. A direct look into life is needed to break the power of illusion.
If you look directly there is always just movement: light and sound. Subtle sound appears as thoughts in the mind and projects the illusion of separate objects. These objects are also in an apparent movement which is labelled by the intelligence of life as "actions", these actions are also just thoughts.
"Actions" are perceived by the ego as a matter of cause and effect. This is a conclusion due to knowledge about time as well as about cause and effect. This however is not a direct knowing, it is indirect, it depends on knowledge. Look directly into life to break the power of illusion!
"The movement of thoughts projects the illusion of time."
What non-sense? Why do thoughts move? Because of time, of course! How does the movement project?!
I know the answer: It just happens that way?
Time is not an illusion, it is the engagement of the ONE, and - so are you.
Andreas: What non-sense? Why do thoughts move? Because of time, of course!
Response: Life is a mystery. It could only showed the contradictions in how life is explained through knowledge by the ego. Life is a mystery. Who said, that Life makes sense to the ego based on logic?
I find no better way to point to the mystery life is! And I suggested to look for yourself and not to believe my words. Only if it becomes your own direct realization, there is no need for words any more to try to understand anything.
So we have "causality" or "origination" if it suits us [sound, light, illusion, etc..], and "mystery" if causality does not suit us?
How convenient!
Who judges where causality and origination ends and the Mystery starts?
Let us THINK! Let us think ONE. Let us understand how ONE engages in TIME.
It is no problem to me that logic could not prove what I have to say. I know my words appear like mad to the ego. Logic is only used to try to make the ego aware of the many contradictions in its own explanations of life. Doubt about man‘s view of life are the first footsteps of wisdom.
If the ego were aware not only of the contradictions of the Sage's explanations but also about its own many contradictions, man would ponder and begin to doubt his false conviction that man were the doer!
Why is it not possible for man to convince a Sage that man is the doer? 99% of mankind (adults!) believe to be the doer - why are there some (called the Sages) which are proclaiming the illusoriness of doership (and there are many on this website!)? Are they all mad? Why do they look so sane and man is so full of worry?
You might say that man has to learn "thinking" first before he could make his life a better place. And the world peace is very difficult because there are so many other people who are not able to think yet. But why is man's own family not happy? At least in this small area of life a man with the "capacity to think" should be able to create happiness, fairness and so on...
Only you yourself could see the contradictions between your own life and your proclamations about man being the doer! Have a deep look into your daily life! I do not have the capacity to know what's going on in your life, but this should be the basis of your discussion. So don't be too abstract, don't just make this discussion into a theoretical question.
You might even "win" this discussion by proving my explanations as not valid according to the logic of the mind, but you should ask yourself: If man were the doer, as you believe, why are so many contradictions in his daily life? Why does he argue with his wife and children? Why is he not always happy? Why is fear present in man? Why does he not trust life? Why does he not trust his plans? Why is doubt present in man? Why are his relationships so complicated?
All the explanations are not needed to LIFE THE MYSTERY OF LIFE or better TO BE THE MYSTERY, they are only needed to make man understand that his logic has to come to an extend where it is seen to be useless. Then unconditional trust will dawn on him.
With "mystery which could not be explained logically" was meant that obviously all the Sage's explanations about Life are not appropriate to explain the Mystery of Life. So the mind will always find arguments against the words which try to explain.
What a convenient assumption and projection of Catholicism from the papacy of non-duality!
Let me translate hermeneutically:
"MY words are pure wisdom and ABSOLUTE UNDERSTANDING, and that is why anyone contradicting them MUST be the victim of the ego, mind, and illusion."
Dear reader, please don‘t ever read my posts as a discussion in which one side tries to prove the other wrong. The truth could never be known. Truth is the understanding that all knowledge is illusory. Illusory explanations try to show that there are many holes in the net of the illusion and these explanations are of course illusory too.
All words written here just try to make man doubt his beliefs, not to convey any truth in form of knowledge. Man‘s way to look at life is contradictory in many ways. Sometimes the posts may appear like “I know the truth, you not“, but it is never meant like that. I don‘t KNOW the truth either. Truth is. So be the truth. Live the Truth and not knowledge!
If I were the doer I would promise that every question here on this thread will be responded to by me. Not to prove the other wrong, but to never give up the attempt to set the other free of his beliefs and simply be Truth instead of knowing it.
I am also availabe if anybody is interested in personal (email-)contact. If you are really interested, you are welcome. And it‘s not me who decides who is really interested, it‘s you. As long as questions are there, I will respond, meaning: Life will respond.
So I promise: Life will respond to all questions of the mind always. And if not through Marcus, Life will always find other ways to respond to those who are prepared to listen.
Love to All,
Marcus Stegmaier