You are hereForums / Friendship / Friendship 19, with Benjamin Smythe
Friendship 19, with Benjamin Smythe
More Open than Ben? Doesn't appear too often. Is it a benediction to self and those around? I see it as yes. When we can see ourselves and our reflection in others, all possibilities flood in. That is when life seems to "just take care".
www.benjamintsmythe.wordpress.com
Wow. That was one awesome Universe swirly. Thanks for being real, and by real I mean talking about darkness, and the heart, and what it means to "do your best". So much more that could be said, but it doesn't want to blah blah blah.
Thank you Ben.
For some reason I am concerned about your 'state of mind'.
Salvador Dali said: "The only difference between a mad man and me is that I am not mad"
Are you o.k.?
A,
There is a video response for you at:
youtube.com/benjaminsmythe
:)
B
If you think you know something about what is here, then you can feel sane. Only once you feel sane or label yourself as that, can you question 'other' as being insane.
Yet what is here can't be known and it is totally insanity that anybody could ever think this life is something sane. Always trying to make sense of what can not be made sense of. It is chaos here even in its simplicity.
People say that there is something stable here and hereness is a way to point to that. But even hereness is not ever really here. It's gone as soon as it is noticed as here. Where did it go to? Here. Now it is Here. Try to see the stableness of here and you will see how equally it is gone. There is nothing solid in here. Notice here and now it is here. There is not moments of time in which one moment passes into another moment. It is always here but here is so fresh and newly here that here is not the same here as it is when it is here, now it is here, fresh now, fresh here. Even the slightest noticing of what is here, is a fresh here. Here is not stable at all! Nothing here is stable, so how can one expect self to be anything stable or sane. There is nothing that is constant, not even here. Not even this presence, it's not consistently present because it's always freshly present.
If you can really get a sense of this from your direct experience, you mind will eat itself, go in shock, or give up in awe, you might than begin to question your own sanity. This is truly what not knowing is.
If you haven't questioned your own sanity, you know too much. I would take Ben's advice to heart: "I don't know how deep you go into the corners of your own mind"... question it until the mind folds upon itself.
Of course this has nothing to do with you at all. This just arose out of reading what you wrote. I don't know you or what you have been through or what you experience over there, so nothing I say here is personal. I am not replying to someone particular or somebody else that is not already here or freshly here or now here. I am just insane that way LOL This whole thing is insane. What insanity life is. And I don't even know if that is true, maybe the insanity is just here. I question it, I question everything! I know nothing for certain, NOTHING! It's crazy and nuts and nonsense, but here it is, whatever it is. Holy shit! Fuck! Wow! This whole thing is weird! What the hell is this? I just don't know! I can't know, what is to know.
Dear Nicholas,
I like your letter - sincere and honest, it's coming from the heart, and that is why I am tempted to reply. What I want to say is that life is NOT insane, nor is it weird, or even sane per say, and this is not as complicated as it seems to be. It is simple, truly, really simple, and you DO know this as the truth. You Do know, but chose to forget. Of course, nothing “you” can do to know “what is to know” - because “you” made it, you believe in it. But the good news is what you made can be undone FOR you, and then you know the Truth as your own Self. Just know – with no question or thought of it. Simple as that.
Irene
Actually it's just a way of pointing to the subtleness of reality. The weirdness of it is just one finite subtle aspect of the infinite fullness of experiences that can unfold.
Nothing I say is truth because that cannot be spoken, one can only give representations of seeing what is already here and the truth may be directly seen but never described. Therefore nothing I say is believed or actual, yet words to give that impression.
Thank you for your compassionate words Irene, I am grateful.
Thanks for your response, Nicholas!
I agree with what you say – the statements and conclusions are sophisticated and deep enough, but... totally dead. Nothing I would add here, except that just ask -why are we so tempted time after time after time to repeating our circle of suffering? Why don’t we just stop for a moment to see that what we are doing – going in circles - is indeed insane? Why don’t we just get off of that rollercoaster we are so exhausted from riding but keep doing it anyway? Why do we keep talking and thinking and arguing and agreeing, and describing ... what have you, about the truth instead of just knowing the Truth and be glad? Just firkin why???
Irene
We all have own why's but none of them touch the vastness and fullness of what is here. The vastness of any experience is much fuller than any interpretation we can have about it. The inherent infinite nature of 'reality' is not resolvable. There seems to be a process that unfolds in realizations, but there is no final arrival point. The realizations are infinite. The closest point to an 'ultimate' realization (or seeing) is realizing that there is no final arrival point (just a constant movement of complex 'energies' in which we simplify into finite interpretations). Every realization is just a finite incompleteness of the infinite unfolding that is here. Nothing can ever be known for sure, the experiences that unfold are infinite. Truth is equally every finite experience in the whole that experience itself is. There is nowhere to land or reference-point to say that I know or understand anything for sure other than that this, whatever it is, is.
In my direct experience here, I can't understand what I am experiencing, but it is self-evident that experience is here. It doesn't have to be understood. Understand it or not, it's still obviously here. Rather you can intellectually articulate that experience or not by answering the questions of why, it is still here. Simple and obvious, no understanding needed, no why questions need answers. One can not rid of the experience or presence or hereness (whatever word you resonate with). It comes on full force without effort and therefore no effort is needed to see it. Everything else is an 'overlay' of the simple effortlessness of this.
The least I would expect as a response to my “Why people keep talking about the Truth rather than just knowing the Truth and be glad?” was an another sophisticated and long answer. Amazing! Yes, the Truth CAN be known, and needs to be known – not intellectually, but directly. All we need to do is just shut up and listen
Namaste
In my experience here, I used to talk about it for many reasons that were ego stimulated.
Yet, when the 'heart awoken' (as a way of speaking), there's a natural love that automatically, naturally, and spontaneously effortlessly flows out. In this experience here, it's a love that can't be described since it is storyless without reason or why, but it seems to move in the direction of sharing itself with itself (for lack of better words).
However, I am quite content with not sharing since I see I am not needed, but sharing happens or it doesn't, there is no why. I see you're still sharing too and I am delighted of that. :)
Thank you Irene for everything you are.
Why are you saying you are not needed? How do you know that? Sharing is a great and rewarding thing - only sharing can be satisfactory. But there is a fine line though – a razor edge. Coming from the ego, the idea of so called “sharing” becomes a trap giving a false impression of being the epicenter of all the true and the best for humanity – maniac idea that causes tyranny, wars and everything else of this sort. This is a realm of hell. When trying to share, see for yourself whether it gives you joy or otherwise – be honest and sincere in your inquiry.
Namaste,
Irene
I don't mean that in a apathy sense. It's just a seeing that I am not the center of the universe and without 'me' the universe still universes. I am not here because I am needed. I am here like that of a flower, quite naturally.
Yes what I am calling love, you are calling joy; same thing. Love is joy in manner of speaking.
Namaste
"Love is joy in manner of speaking" - perfectly said!
Nicholas: In my experience here, I used to talk about it for many reasons that were ego stimulated.
Response: The ego is still there, Nicholas, very subtle! You may wonder, why Marcus knows this about Nicholas. The answer is easy, Marcus also has been in your state: Nothing could really touch you any more, feelings appear so far away and everything appears peaceful and alive.
And yet, the ego, the belief to be the doer, is still there, very subtle, until it is understood with clarity. In this state, spiritual teachers delude others that something could be done to "see it" and others often embrace this teaching, because they are exhausted from the search.
By meeting Dr. Shankar life showed me the subtleness of my spiritual ego. Man is not the doer, speaker and thinker. The truth could not be experienced and putting the focus on freedom as an act of will and choice is illusory!!!
Nicholas: Yet, when the 'heart awoken' (as a way of speaking), there's a natural love that automatically, naturally, and spontaneously effortlessly flows out.
Response: If Irene's heart would have awoken after reading your words, she would not have written, that it was her decision to "open herself to light" as she writes.
Yet, after many years of searching, with all the desperation and the trying to get "IT", she has found some rest in believing that "nothing needs to be understood". How long will it last?
I wish for her that she is happy now forever. I wish for her that anger, fear and desperation will never appear real to her any more and that she had understood that she is not the doer, speaker and thinker. However, I doubt that this has happened to her.
As long as man believes to be the doer, he will never find real peace!
Dear Marcus,
So the whole point of your discussions, as I see it, is just to “prove” that no one is awaken or at least is not as awaken as Marcus or Dr. Shankar who your keep quoting. Nothing would be wrong with that, if you would be honest enough to see and to admit what you are doing. Instead, you are covering these strictly ego-based intentions with what might appear to you as sophisticated spiritual words… Well, it’s your rollercoaster, keep riding if you wish to.
Irene
Irene: keep riding if you wish to.
Response: Do you understand that man is not the doer?
Awwwww, someone looks like they need a *Big Hug!* Hugs Marcus
Nicholas: HUGS! Awwwww, someone looks like they need a *Big Hug!* Hugs Marcus
Response: Hugs and love and lol are the attributes of the spiritualist. A man of understanding will not strenghten the false ego but pointing out its illusoriness. This does not appear as love to the ego.
But it is not love to hold man in bondage, yet it happens to the spiritualist, because he is deluded himself without being aware of it.
Hugs and love are the spiritualist's mechanism of defense and appear spiritual to the seeker.
Dear Tatnaus!
Tatnaus: Yes, the Truth CAN be known, and needs to be known – not intellectually, but directly. All we need to do is just shut up and listen
Response: Truth can not be known, neither intellectually nor directly. The known needs to be understood as illusory. This understanding, which happens beyond the mind, reveals that actions, individuals and time are illusory and not real: an optical and auditary illusion of light and sound.
Therefore "we doing" and "shut up and listen" is illusory, in other words, MAN IS NOT THE DOER.
Tatnaus: “Why people keep talking about the Truth rather than just knowing the Truth and be glad?”
Response: People who talk about "truth" as well as people who believe to "know" truth are in a spiritual dream. Nothing, however, could be done about it, because MAN IS NOT THE SPEAKER. Understanding the illusoriness of all known happens as part of the sophistication-process of life, not as an act done by man.
Understanding/enlightenment is freedom OF thoughts, not freedom FROM thoughts! Thoughts are just sound. If understood as such, they may come and go, and nothing could be done about their coming and going anyway, for MAN IS NOT THE THINKER.
Experiences of "truth" come and go. How real the next argument with anybody appears to you! How real anger, fear, desperation, sadness still appear to you despite your "shutting up and just knowing Truth"!
The mind has to be understood with clarity as illusory in every aspect of man's daily life. A clear understanding that all known in the mind is illusory is enlightenment. It rarely happens that man's whole conditioned mind is seen through in a moment of "keeping quiet", and if it happens, nobody could make it happen.
Light, sound, man has to…illusory mind…come on, says who? Until you know truth for yourself as Yourself – really KNOW - not intellectually know, not any kind of worldly know – but really, truly know – you are just keeping riding this slightly remodeled but still old, rusty rollercoaster.
If you want to keep playing this eons old game – slightly modified in look and content to appear now a sophisticated spiritual/enlightened adventure, but still the same old game - then this is what you want, and nothing wrong with that. It’s just that this is not what I want – no more games for me no matter how attractive and sophisticated they may appear - enough is enough. Truth can be known and needs to be known – that’s all there is and that is what it’s all about. “The truth will set you free,” are not just words, but means to our salvation if we chose so…“Shut up and listen” doesn’t mean literally shut up and listen with your ears – speaking your language, it may translate as to turning off your sounds and turning your face up to the light :)
Namaste,
Irene
Dear Irene,
“The truth will set you free,” are not just words, but means to our salvation if we chose so…", you write. If man could choose freedom he would have done it already and forever!
Man is not the doer, speaker and thinker. Life is intelligent: It makes man think "I want to choose seeing truth" and it makes him dream silence for some time. This is how life maintains the illusory world appear real to man.
Understanding happens to man as knowledge through the intellect which is in the mind. Understanding, again, happens in intelligence, which is light, that reveals an understanding that knowledge is illusory and not real.
Be honest: Does not anger, fear, sadness and desperation still appear real to you after "choosing" salvation?
I intended not to participate in this discussion anymore due to the reasons I mentioned previously, but since you are asking me a question, I am giving it a shot. Even though you question in a way that implies an answer or call to argument, which doesn’t appeal to me, I am still giving it a shot.
Q: Be honest: Does not anger, fear, sadness and desperation still appear real to you after "choosing" salvation?
A: Let me tell you about one of my nightmares– in the past, time to time I’d have a scary dream in which a monster would chase me. The monster was very big, ugly and angry, and I would run from him with all my might, waking up in the middle of the night with beads of sweat on my forehead. Then one night, the monster appeared again, only this time I decided not to run, but turned to face him and was determined not to move a bit no matter what. The monster looked at me from the far, opened his scary big arms, growled making me tremble from head to toy like a tiny leaf in a thunderstorm, and ran toward me. All my flesh, all my “fly and fight” instincts begged me to run, but I didn’t move – not because I was paralyzed by fear, but because this time I decided to face my greatest fear and see it for what it truly was, even though in that case it could mean death. The monster was running toward me with a high speed, but I was calm inside and wouldn’t move. Strange things started to happen – the monster seemed to begin losing his speed, then his look started to change – his big arms fell down and he stopped growling. He ran for a while in this way, and then spread his arms and growled again, but now his desperate attempt to appear scary once again was clearly seen. From that point, even though he continued running toward me, his head fell down and his size started to decrease. The closer he would approach, the slower he would run and the smaller he would become. The remaining distance he almost walked, his look reminded that of a small disappointed child whose attempt to scare you by covering into the white sheets didn’t succeed. And as he walked, he was becoming more and more transparent, until he finally disappeared. I woke up with a deep realization – fear is made of nothing, and it is nothing; it just appears to be real as long as you want to believe in it to be so. Face to see fear, and then you see it for what it really is – just a dream.
That is my answer to your question about fear. Anger, sadness and desperation? Usually those are emotions that surface on the top, with the fear being at the ‘epicenter”. Go to the core, to the epicenter of any emotion, and face it; inquire into what is in there, and then you know it for yourself. Of course, you don’t necessarily have to do any of these, but that is my answer to your question
Namaste,
Irene
Irene: I woke up with a deep realization – fear is made of nothing, and it is nothing; it just appears to be real as long as you want to believe in it to be so. Face to see fear, and then you see it for what it really is – just a dream.
Response: Nobody wants to believe in fear, the belief that fear is real happens to man. And similarly facing the fear happens to you, it could not be brought about by will or choice. Happy for you that facing the fear happened and the realization that fear is illusory happened.
Thank you for taking part in this conversation.
All the best!
Irene
Dear Irene,
you wrote: "I intended not to participate in this discussion anymore due to the reasons I mentioned previously..."
Understand that intentions are illusory. Fear appears real only due to the belief that man is the doer. If an understanding happens, that there could never be done anything against feelings, facing them happens spontaneously and they are realized to be illusory.
Therefore, if it happens, face not only the fear, but also the root of it: the illusion to be the doer.
Love, Marcus
The ONE engages as time - this means beauty, harmony, in all cosmos - the grounding of the light.
The quote of Salvador Dali: "The only difference between a mad man and me, is that I am not mad" takes care of the human conventions of "sanity".
Thus speaks a hero of human conditionings of "sanity".
He held a lecture in New York in a Diving Suit with a mask and all, of course no one understood anything he said, and he finally collapsed from heat exhaustion. They had to carry him off the stage. He made art of the insanity of the human world, and cultivated it.
The 'grounding of the light' or true enlightenment is all about sanity, harmony, and balance.
I don't know enough about Ben. My "insanity" is probably asking the question at all.
So, you may disregard it.
Very open and moving post:)
Thanks for this Ben ♥
You're welcome, Tom. :)
I really appreciate this sharing, thank you!
Ben really resonates here.
I feel inspired to share his youtube channel too: http://www.youtube.com/user/BenjaminSmythe
Hi all, First thanks to Richard and Ben for the video- I really enjoyed it, especially towards the end when both of you shared great open-ness and honesty. One thing came to my mind to share. Ben,
rememeber when you said "were in a tall building of your mind" and were thinking of how it's possible to do things to others etc. and it un-nerved you. Well, you might find an excerpt insightful on that matter (not that it would "help" - I don't know):
It was an excerpt from a talk by Adyashanti called "absolute ego" on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sqbSqtDsa4
In that talk Adya discusses the importance of not fixating on an absolute viewpoint (although it is true), but also recognizing and allowing the relative human viewpoint, and allowing that aspect to be guided and penetrated by truth.
My guess is that is already what you are doing and going through, Ben, but I thought it might be nice or comforting or I don't know what to hear someone else relating to that.
Joe