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Discard Even the Teaching
Without any teaching most awakened ones would still be asleep today. So from a certain perspective a guide (teaching) is key. Just to be clear about that.
And ultimately it becomes a mere pointer, and then the question arises: can we even throw that road sign (teaching) on the fire of truth.
Myself still being in the process of throwing things on the fire, some issues keep coming back. Like: 'Should I throw this on the fire also? But, but...that goes against the core root of my conditioning. Brrr... '
To become concrete. To go beyond the teaching and following your own inner truth can possibly (and most likely) mean that you don't agree with certain teachers, and perhaps even parts of certain big teachings.. And it becomes harder and harder to push it away with the idea of 'well, if I'm enlightened one day I will probably understand what he/she meant.'
One core issue for me is: living from the teaching, and then calling this enlightenment. This way avoiding the natural ability that we humans have to totally experience life, so that it doesn't leave any traces of hate and suffering. So to experience pain and anger fully.
By living from the teaching (an idea), probably combined with a peaceful mind and the memory of past experiences of oneness, people bypass what is truly needed right now in this moment.
Isn't the idea of enlightenment that we arrive were we always have been, but now live from this same place refreshed, more natural? And then the teaching is useless in every day life.
About a year ago I saw this Byron Katie clip, and already then I was sensing: It may be true what she says, but to reply, to a friend who wants to express her suffering, with a mind-story, it doesn't seem natural to me. And today I still feel the same. Her story may be right, but is it integrated, so that it becomes obsolete.
I'm talking about the first minute or so. But this is just an example. So this is not a Byron Katie topic. There are dozens of other examples out there.
This issue of going beyond the teaching burns inside of me. It really touches the root of conditioning. Because if you think about it it's connected with a lot of different issues: trusting your inner truth may mean not listening to others (while you had to trust your parents in order to survive), and not listening to others may mean standing alone. Seen on our animal level it is easier to survive if your not alone ( with others you will more likely find food and be protected from predators.) I guess the key is to fully see (respect) these needs of the body, without acting them out unless it feels natural/healthy.
It's wondrous 'stuff' we are dealing with here. Some 'ready-mades' that are connected with this issue are:
Be your own Guru ; Be a light to yourself ; The teaching is like a raft: once you crossed the river, you don't need it anymore ; Tibetan saying: if the student is not better than the teacher, then the teacher is a failure (they are dangerous quotes, I know, like any pointer they can also be misused)
But to really, really cross the river...
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Arjen,maybe I`ve not fully understood your thoughts on this topic so you should correct me where I misinterpreted the meaning of it.
Last paragraph is however quite clear:
Be your own guru,be a light to yourself, leave the raft, etc.
It is about when and how or if we would go beyond the teachings and live in our own truth or become our own truth - become enlightened.
I don`t even know what we mean with the word "enlightement".
In one way I know in an other way I don`t.
The problem, at least as far as I am concerned, is that there are many rivers, which require different vessels, could be rafts, boats or transatlantics.
I see more and more that when I have crossed one river, there is an other one waiting (hopfully more comfortable than the previous one) and it is all a matter of growth and that there is always room for more growth.
Maybe I am one of those who will never reach the "final goal"since this goal moves forward all the time,becomming more and more impersonal, as the evolution shows itself to be.
As I can imagine, there will always be teachers who will say things that I can`t accept in that time but that I can understand better later or the opposite in an ever growing spiral.
To me this is quite stimulating and beautiful.
I wrote this yesterday above our mission statement:
"Mankind is able to express their feelings and thoughts. When they are unable to express them, then they desire to express themselves through silence. However, all these feelings, thoughts, speech and silence are to indicate that there is something wonderful within us that feels good. Listening about it, talking about it, thinking about it, feeling it, and experiencing it, all of which seem to make us to feel good. What is it? What truth is that?"
Just talking with friends (or the sangha as they say) or even when we are posting on this site, the above statement is in play. It includes "guides", without which certainly this site wouldn't exist.
1. But something subtle happens when we listen to a teacher. We expect that we are going to "get" something. We are striving to make sense out of something. For who? It is that exact expectation that is the birth of the separation that we went there to see through. How can our objective work, when just having the objective is also the disease?
2. It is the same with teachers, even when they profess that they are not a "teacher". Their expectation is that they are going to offer something meaningful, and that many have "got it" through my communication. That communication is definitely a One Way Street, toward you, and if you talk too much they might even christen it "resistance". Now you are not only a separate seeker, but you have your very own resistance. I think I could say 100% of the teachers that I have talked with are in this trap. It is not personal to them, it is The Game. Actually, come to think of it, the only one that I ever saw address this is Karl Renz.
Every time there is an expectation toward you, it immediately creates a subtle wall of separateness, as your inner self decides, "do I want to fulfill this expectation"? This is so automatic as "mind's job" to evaluate every incoming "threat". Just love it as you notice, we are a marvelous mechanism.
3. Can an encounter exist where there is no expectation? That would mean by this analysis that there would be no barriers? I would like to find out. That is the birth of the series called "Friendship". It is in the forum, check it out. I have some other encounters scheduled. All are invited to participate in this series, just write. Friendship just means that with a minimum of barriers, some connection is there immediately, which we have usually considered takes decades to develop. I didn't feel to pretentiously call it "Oneness".
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Richard:
Interesting thoughts you shared about 'the Game.' Perhaps ideally a teaching contains also pointers that show that it indeed is a game. I do remember from a few years ago, when I was interested in zen-buddhism, that they have quite a few stories that are supposed to shake up the mind of the seeker a bit when it comes to teacher-student relations. I remember a story about a zen-monk who imitated his master by raising his index finger in the air when he was speaking, and when the master saw this he cut off his finger. To show: only speak when from direct experience, not from learned knowledge. On the other hand I also remember stories about students exposing the ignorance of their teacher. And these stories are really part of the bigger teaching called Zen. Probably these stories were made up through the centuries because there was a need for them. Either when seekers played the teacher to early, or when they were idolizing the teaching or teachers too much.
Anna:
About the word enlightenment. I am also not clear what this means. But I also could have used the word awakening or going through the gate-less gate. With an enlightened person I now mean (it could be that my view again will change on this) someone who has released an enormous amount of stress energy that before then kept him/her from being free, from living a natural life. But I doubt (or am curious) whether there has ever been a person who has released the full 100% percent, or whether this is even possible in a lifetime. So in practice this means that when someone goes through the gateless gate we can speak of a before and after, a big shift: hallelujah! But it also means that the process of releasing stress energy ever continues, it deepens and deepens. And of course also before one goes through the gateless gate a deepening can happen. For most it's a gradual thing, although it seems to happen in most cases that within this gradual process it can happen that a super huge chunk falls away. And then we call this enlightenment. Well, this is at least for the moment my view. It sounds pretty bodily the way I describe it, but the way I see it 'enlightenment' is only for this body-mind system, or just for the body. Could it be that the search is nothing more than our body trying to find release from stress, so it finally can function in a natural way again? For our true nature enlightenment probably is nothing more than a tiny bubble on the infinite ocean of Love that we are.
"The problem, at least as far as I am concerned, is that there are many rivers, which require different vessels, could be rafts, boats or transatlantics. I see more and more that when I have crossed one river, there is an other one waiting (hopfully more comfortable than the previous one) and it is all a matter of growth and that there is always room for more growth."
When I have gone through the gateless gate I will have crossed the river. So when I use the term 'river' I see only one river. Perhaps I'm hanging above the ultimate illusion: the idea of enlightenment and non-enlightenment. There is no river, and thus the raft is useless. But to me at the moment it still seems like there is a river, so from this view I see the teaching as a raft. Perhaps we have to test out the raft fully, before we can truly see with our own eyes that no raft is needed, since there is no river. I crossed the river, and the river vanished, something like that.
What you call growth, I probably call deepening. Perhaps we mean the same. Instead of accumulating things, things fall away. For me it seems like there's more confusion and more clarity at the same time.
"As I can imagine, there will always be teachers who will say things that I can`t accept in that time but that I can understand better later or the opposite in an ever growing spiral. To me this is quite stimulating and beautiful."
I think the gist of my startpost is the balance between on the one hand being totally open and accepting that you need an instructor to help you. And on the on the other hand the growing insight that you can only walk through the gateless gate yourself. I still bow to the impact that Krishnamrti had on me about 9 years ago. He shook me up. It wasn't pleasant, and I have been in some pretty dark places in the years after that. And there are at least 5 or 6 teachers that I am ever thankful to from the bottom of my heart. But when I walk my own path, disregarding more and more what other people think of it, there is also a possibility that I disagree with my own teachers. So at the moment I'm digesting this: is what feels true to me false, or is there a possibility that this teacher has also a few issues that have remained unseen. I am investigating whether this boundary between the teacher and me has become a problem (the last hiding place of the ego. ['I'm just a little seeker, how can I know what's true'] ) So, this was an issue that I felt like bringing up.
Like I mentioned in my startpost the things that I mention can be misused. So I try to be aware that it's not just some mindtrip I'm on.
Perhaps it was a bit vague why I used the Byron Katie clip. But for me that was an example of something that doesn't feel true to me. (Playing the teacher game when it's not appropriate and thereby bypassing the experiencing of true feelings. When someone says 'I love you', perhaps indeed this person doesn't mean it, but it very likely was a way of this dying person to say: 'I enjoyed your visit, thank you very much.' There's nothing wrong with that.
And then the question arises, am I a student who's finger needs to be cut off, or am I finally following my own truth? This is not the kind of question that I expect a direct answer to, but I just feel it's healthy to bring it up. To see that there's a tightening up within my system around this issue.
Arjen, your issues are interesting and important and I like very much your way of expressing doubts and feelings, with simplicity and sincerity.I understand that you don`t expect answers, there are no answers to give but I think that those of us who go with these questions, recognizing the problem, wish to share their own experiences. And what I say is very much alsö for my own sake, since when I`ve put my thoughts into words they become more evident to me and I can in this way get my own feedback.So thank you for giving me this opportunity.
I am sure that we mean the same thing with the words "growth" and "deepening".
I understand alsö what you mean by crossing the river once and then leave the raft. But I am not sure that I consider the teachng, the teachers and the deepening the same way you do (although as it happened before, after discussing for a while maybe we find that we agree with each other...).
And an other thing I understand quite well is how it feels living in dark places feeling separate in a prison of spiritual pain.
In my dark place the light of hope came also to me through a teacher, Ken Wilber, who showed me the door out (after many decades of suffering). But it was only the first door, (or the first raft, if you like)of many which followed during many years. That`s why I speak mostly of growth.And I would add that for me it is a matter of evolving one`s consciousness more than a sudden bliss or final realization.
Emptiness is Form, but - this Form is evolving both inwordly and outwordly and is going somewhere.
I also believe that the teachings are important because we must stand on the shoulders of those sages who lived before and take their lineage with us in our turn.And when we can stay on our own feet we also feel more free to take our own steps.
I think that patience is also of a great value when we suffer. And another thing that I realize more and more in my own life is the importance of our capacity and passion for the simpel learning, the curiosity for everything that is new, the capacity of still feel awe over new discoveries of e.g. science or whatever...
So when you speak about the boundary between you and a teacher or if your finger needs to be cut off I shouldn`t bother too much. It`s all part of the process.
To stay open to the mystery unfolding and trust the process and whatever is arising in it, this is what at least I believe in.
About these rivers. From a personal perspective I can also see different rivers. And yes in that sense I have crossed several rivers (I am much more alive then ten years ago.) Looking at my life a progress can be seen.
So there is a deepening going on within me, and I guess you can also call that growth. And ofcourse the classic question in the 'enlightenment-bussiness' is: is it gradual or direct?
And to that usually comes a classic answer: it's both.
And that is also the way I see it right now. A deepening happens and will continue to happen, but I expect that there will be a day on which I see irrefutably that I am not what I think I am. And then I can say, looking back, 'I've gone through the gateless gate.' And for me this is the one river in which all rivers seem to flow. The big river has no problem with the small rivers.
But perhaps an analogy of a big ocean (what I really am) with different undercurents is better.
In my search for truth. one thing becomes more clear to me. Ultimately I am the only reference point. When I will see fully that I am not who I think I am, then I don't need something external (a teacher) to validate that. When I will see, I will see. And as long as I need other people to tell me I'm indeed right, then there still is doubt. At this moment there still is doubt, so I don't fully see. (In order to vanish all doubts, we must doubt everything.)
I agree that patience is usefull. Although I did make the 'misstake' for some time to think that this meant: searching has no use anymore. Nowadays I find that searching can happen within patience.
Sometimes I feel like I'm going back to kindergarten. I start asking beginners questions again, like what about suffering and so on. And then trying to feel this with my whole system. Not delving into it, but by simply noticing the tightnening, which can still be pretty intense. Gradually I'm starting to feel more lightness around these issues.
But it's almost like I'm peeling of an onion within my system: there still is some darkness, but new layers (stories) appear.
(I bet to a lot of advaita-veterans this sounds hopelessly dualistic, but I'm dong what feels natural. I now know for sure that if I bypass the beginners questions (been there ,done that), that 30 years from now I will still be holding my hand up like a beggar: 'a little bliss please.') I'm going to kindergarten, but doing it consciously, not expecting any clear cut answers. It's more like i'm bringing light to things that want to be seen. Issues can only vanish if they are acknowleged. (nothing more, nothing less - And the feeling of intensity comes only from resistance.)
About teachers. Perhaps we end up in paradoxes again: you need a teacher and at the same time you don't need a teacher.
And there is the matter of teachers who have not quite integrated everything yet (in the beginning we can still learn from them) and the true teachers. And ultimately even these 'true teachers' have to make themselves obsolete. (for example: If someone falls in love with a guru, a true guru will point out that the seeker in essence falls in love with himself. Or else the guru stands in the way of true seeing.)
(latest edit: just changed a little word, nothing else)
Just some more words about your topic.
Quite funny your expression "to go back to kindergarten". It reminded me about Jesus words "Unless dou do not become as a child again..." Well, the context is not the same, but who knows? Anyhow I laughed a bit.
Actually I find myself often in the same situation, asking beginners questions. Some teachers don`t like it, some become even impatient and I don`t blame them. I`ve been a schoolteacher and must always move students who weren`t on right level to a lower (or higher!) classes. In nonduality context, if you doubt, you aren`t ready. What should I say having mostly doubts? Misquoting Descartes: "I doubt, therefore I am"?
By the way I agree about cancer. It isn`t fun at all.
Some exempels of doubts:
Consciousness might be an illusion and the whole spiritual affair of nonduality reducible to our brain function.
Sometimes I have also a feeling that nonduality teachings have a tendency to become narcissistic ("I am perfect the way I am")which means stagnation.
Sorry, maybe I`m slipping out of the subject.
I`ve been thinking about the words "realization" vs "transformation".
I imagine the first one being a sudden awakening to one`s truth, the second one should be a lasting change, which must take time?
Besides, I think that at least I have no doubt that both happen in their own cultural context i.e. changing in interaction with external factors and causes. And that we need both intellect and experiences to understand what is happening.
As for the rest and the time being I wonder where the next harbour will be for my raft to land...
LOL this is a great thread, i laugh tho because the first thing i wanted to say was... the teachings i follow... blah blah and thats pretty funny given the topic. Arjen, thanks for posting Katie's video no matter what your "reason" i have not heard nor seen her for a few years and watching this was rather enlightening in itself.
Anna... what you said resonated with me quite a bit and feels like what I have been using and doing in my life these past few years, what ever it is that I am using on the inside to bring relief and allow myself to come to this moments understanding of ...hm.. lets forget the word "enlightenment" for a moment and just say light... whatever feels light is light. Much of thought not only doesnt feel light but doesnt feel go(o)d either...
so here goes... the "teachings" (words words oh words) that I have been integrating into my time/space ask me to trust that I have been given a sure fire way of telling if i am this moment on the well lit path of my, eternal, beautiful, and benevolent Self... how does it feel?
If it feels good to think this or that then for that moment in time space I am on MY right path, in fact if I can find something that even feels a tinsy bit better then i am moving in the best direction for me...
perhaps the thought that enlightenment or light and I are NOT on the same wavelength IS the culprit... for if i really trusted that all is one and i exist as a part of that one in an eternal state of expansion and joy (should i so choose) then would i feel the need of a "teacher" at all? what would they teach me? and who would they be "teaching" who that I as my god/self could not also teach?
my odd off track painful icky whatever "thoughts" (and thereby feelings) are my children, my creations... and for whatever reason at whatever point in this personality's time/space, i allowed myself to create them... the icky ones were created by me in moments of being scared, feeling vulnerable, rejecting the love of source to and thru myself... for whatever reason...
no matter now.. its ok, im ok. I love feeling good. I love the mystery unfolding, i love surprise i love delight... Ok now im on a rampage of love and that feels really good! thanks (O: AnnMarie
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